To anyone that CCW.....this is a MUST READ!!!!!!

This is a discussion on To anyone that CCW.....this is a MUST READ!!!!!! within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; De-escalate... escape and/or retreat whenever possible, this is the stuff you don't see on TV when someone kills the bad guys, rightly so too. The ...

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Thread: To anyone that CCW.....this is a MUST READ!!!!!!

  1. #31
    Member Array gunsite's Avatar
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    De-escalate... escape and/or retreat whenever possible, this is the stuff you don't see on TV when someone kills the bad guys, rightly so too. The point here as i always try to tell people, de-escalate and don't aggravate a situation, escape... retreat while de-escalating, and escape... sometimes depending on circumstances GET OUT OF THERE...RUNAWAY... who needs this crap and stress on yourself and/or family. Then there's times when you have no choice but to SHOOT, choose your ALAMO!

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  3. #32
    RKM
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    I believe that there have been sufficient threads here to rebut the presumption that the police are brainwashed and automatically assume that someone who shoots in self defense is the bad guy. There may be areas where that is true, but it is far from universal.
    I didn't mean to make it seem they're ALL like that :)

  4. #33
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    No problem, just a clarification in this imperfect medium.
    Thanks for the edit.
    Last edited by Guantes; November 21st, 2010 at 02:09 AM.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  5. #34
    VIP Member Array shockwave's Avatar
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    A very thought-provoking read. Of course, it's always been like this. Go back and watch some of those Charles Bronson Death Wish movies. The odds are almost always stacked against the righteous defender.

    This is why it's important to approach self-defense from a 360-degree perspective. Sure, a firearm is a good thing, and so's a knife, and OC, and a flashlight, and improvised weapons, and H2H combatives, and a knowledge of strategies and tactics, and a good working familiarity with the law, and first aid, and human psychology, and above all your own mastery of yourself and the self-confidence necessary to make good decisions.

    (Regarding OC or taser) I do know that they are legal here in Florida and I am now more interested in aquiring them as an alternative to deadly force.
    Absolutely. I carry the ASP Street Defender on my keyring. Always ready. The detachable swivel clip is a pricey add-on, but well worth it and I strongly recommend both. You park your car, grab your keys, and the ASP is in your hand, ready to deploy. A great first-line defense.

    I won't criticize the victim in this story too much because what happened wasn't really his fault. It was the fault of the attackers from across the street. However, some thoughts came to my mind as I was reading the story. Like he said, his initial responses were inadequate, letting them hammer him about the head, such that he was vulnerable to the sucker punch from the boyfriend.

    This is something you can train for. In my school, we have a game called "monkey in the middle." Maybe 2, 3 or 4 attackers. Your job is to move and string them out, so that you try to keep one in front as a shield against the others. The first woman who attacked him, he could have grabbed her and shoved her against the other. Now there's a moment to bring the OC into play. Success.

    The first woman attacking, he could have taken her drunken charge and made an easy takedown. Same for number two. Retreat and deal with boyfriend. It's unfortunate that the escalation continued until he drew and fired and he paid a heavy price for that. I don't like the police and DA actions here, but at the same time, from their perspective, they will take a dim view of domestic-type altercations ending in gunfire and the burden will be hard on the defender to justify use of a firearm against unarmed neighbors.

    Also, where was the wife during all these fisticuffs? She could have been an active partner engaging with one or more of the other threats. It wasn't his sole job to bring the fight. A couple can put up twice the resistance of a lone defender. If possible, your partner should have some training, too. And finally, try to keep peace with your neighbors.
    "It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."

  6. #35
    VIP Member Array Old School's Avatar
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by bruce21b View Post
    BugDude,

    I agree too about using OC spray.......

    but for me personally, i dont know where i would carry it..........i already have a gun, spare mag, phone, keys, wallet on me and feel like i need a cops duty belt to haul it.......edit: oh and forgot my Spyderco knife is also in the EDC gear

    and like you said, the prosecutor already had him convicted regardless of any fact
    I have been carrying one of these for a few years now and feel it may solve your delema.

    http://www.defensedevices.com/asp-street-defender.html

    Oops. Cross posted with shockwave.
    "Violence is seldom the answer, but when it is the answer it is the only answer".

    "A nation of sheep breeds a government of wolves".

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  7. #36
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    Ought to be required reading.

    Consider this: Let's say Mr. Hickey wore a t-shirt at one time that said, "Kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out"; or had a handgun that had grips with a skull on it; or made boistrous shooting comments on an internet forum, etc etc. I suppose all of those are within his legal rights to do so, but disclosed at trial would have certainly painted a bleaker picture, and even tougher case for him.
    Turn the election's in 2014 to a "2A Revolution". It will serve as a 1994 refresher not to "infringe" on our Second Amendment. We know who they are now.........SEND 'EM HOME. Our success in this will be proportional to how hard we work to make it happen.

  8. #37
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    I've really reflected on this story quite a bit since my original read, and I've gone back and re-read most of it again. In doing so, I've tried to really burn this situation into my mind and force myself to think of how I should respond if in a similar situation. One thing that strikes my in retrospect (hindsight is always 20/20 and doesn't happen in a flash like real situations do) is that anytime there is the slightest hint of trouble brewing, cut a trail. When the neighbor started yelling and coming across her yard raising sand, that's the time to exit. Nothing good can possibly come from it. There were already bad sentiments exchanged via text messages, so there was some reason to believe it wasn't a "hey yall" visit.

    Please understand I'm not criticizing the victim in this story, I'm just trying to reinforce my own strategy of avoiding situations and what could I do in a similar situation.
    Know Guns, Know Safety, Know Peace.
    No Guns, No Safety, No Peace.


    Guns are like sex and air...its no big deal until YOU can't get any.

  9. #38
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    It strikes me so much that it didn't seem to matter to the prosecutors whether they were trying an innocent man.
    Lima hit the nail on the head with this one.

    The Pima County Attorney's Office has a history of prosecuting innocent people, facts be damned. I grew up there, so I do know a little bit about how they think. It is also what makes me to reticent to shoot, even when justified. As Evan Marshall says, "The law is what the local prosecutor says it is."

    They tried him twice, and were looking at having a third go at him. Sadly Pima County is the San Francisco of AZ.

    Biker

  10. #39
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    If I ever have to deal with a situation like this, I wonder how difficult it is to get Ayoob on your side. Is he just a phone call away?
    Take his MAG 40, used to be called LFI 1, class and you will know the answer.
    Trust me, it's worth taking the class. If Larry had taken the class he would've known how to deal with the responding officers, and most likely wouldn't have had to go through the ordeal of two trials and consideration of a third trial.

    Biker

  11. #40
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    As bad as it sounds, if you ever have to use your firearm, make sure you kill the perp(s). We all hope we never have to use our firearms in a defensive situation, but it just makes things easier for the armed citizen if the attacker is in the morgue. No lying perps who change their story. You'd still have to defend your side of the story in court (if it makes it there), but the only claim will be from you, everything else will be speculation from lawyers.

  12. #41
    Senior Member Array gilraen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BikerRN View Post
    Take his MAG 40, used to be called LFI 1, class and you will know the answer.
    Trust me, it's worth taking the class.
    I just googled his site, and his class schedule shows 2009. Nothing for 2010 or 2011. Also, I remember reading (I could be wrong, here) that he doesn't teach his own classes anymore. He has other instructors to do that.

    Would be nice, though, to have all the big guns come riding to your rescue. Not gonna happen for me.
    "I pledge allegiance to the war banner of the united states of Totalitaria. And to the Republic, which no longer stands, several bankers, who are now god, indivisible, with Bernanke bucks and credit for all."

  13. #42
    Senior Member Array gilraen's Avatar
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    Lima, as usual, was right on point. The prosecution wanted nothing to do with the facts, and the police (at least this set of them) had already decided who was in the wrong when they walked up.

    Sad, sad, sad. Morally and ethically wrong, wrong, wrong.
    "I pledge allegiance to the war banner of the united states of Totalitaria. And to the Republic, which no longer stands, several bankers, who are now god, indivisible, with Bernanke bucks and credit for all."

  14. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by BikerRN View Post
    Lima hit the nail on the head with this one.

    The Pima County Attorney's Office has a history of prosecuting innocent people, facts be damned. I grew up there, so I do know a little bit about how they think. It is also what makes me to reticent to shoot, even when justified. As Evan Marshall says, "The law is what the local prosecutor says it is."

    They tried him twice, and were looking at having a third go at him. Sadly Pima County is the San Francisco of AZ.

    Biker

    "Pima County is the San Francisco of AZ."......DAMN, no wonder the poor guy never had a chance :(

  15. #44
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    Like BugDude i too have thought a lot about this incident and tried to insert myself into it..........

    its pretty cut and dry what you have to do when someone is coming at you with a knife/gun/bat, etc, but here we have a 3 on 1 scenario with the goons just using their fists........i guess the prosecutor did not understand "disparity of force" and what it was........so many things went wrong here, and i don't fault the guy who was getting his brains beat in to draw and shoot........but i think something like OC spray would have been the perfect solution here, and i am going to be ordering one of those ASP sprays for my keying that you guys are talking about.....

    Mr. Hickey was basically tried in front of a Kangaroo Court that consisted of the cops and the prosecutor, and like i said before, one critical mistake i think he made was not telling his story as soon as the cops showed up........i know that we are told to say nothing and "lawyer up", but in this case the cops sided with the goons who got their (several) stories out first..........and one thing that bugs me, why was his wife just standing there while these two women were beating on him?????

    I will be thinking about that if i ever have to actually fire my weapon in SD

  16. #45
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    I'm a former TKD instructor, and I used to hear parents all the time when young boys would have to defend themselves at times from girls---tell little jimmy its not ok to hit girls--- I would always ask mom or dad why did you bring him here if he's not allowed to defend himself. From years in that school and going to tournaments "GIRLS" are very capable of hurting you, I'm not one to "soft hand", but you really cant answer what you/I would do until/unless it happens to you/I, maybe he shouldn't have been soft handed with them who knows, you always second guess yourself after the fact. I live in a suburb of Detroit, my youngest aunt is a ER nurse in a downriver hospital, she sees allot of this type thing and says some of the most violent are when women attack men.

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