To anyone that CCW.....this is a MUST READ!!!!!! - Page 5

To anyone that CCW.....this is a MUST READ!!!!!!

This is a discussion on To anyone that CCW.....this is a MUST READ!!!!!! within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; This was a good incident to review for people that think they know how the aftermath will be handled. The truth is every situation is ...

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  1. #61
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    This was a good incident to review for people that think they know how the aftermath will be handled.

    The truth is every situation is different, and when people assume the know how things will work out, they are probably operating on incomplete or inadaquate information.

    Those people who have not taken a class on contact management and use of force management will one day find that the money spent on that cool new gun would have been better spent in training than in upgrading to the newest, coolest gun.


  2. #62
    Member Array Con43's Avatar
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    There is no need for a man to exert violence toward a woman. She can be easily scooped and set down on the ground without much trouble. The endgame analysis of this story is that the man was under-trained.

    Is this a joke or are you really that dense. You either live a very sheltered life or haven't met the right women yet. I have trained with women who have made me see stars long before I scooped them up and sat them on the ground. Maybe I need practice on my scoopes.

  3. #63
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shockwave View Post
    If you attend a dojo and practice regularly, you will discover that a man's weight and size advantage are usually enough to deal with female opponents. A woman who trains on a constant basis can overcome those deficits, but it takes a lot of work.

    There is no need for a man to exert violence toward a woman. She can be easily scooped and set down on the ground without much trouble. The endgame analysis of this story is that the man was under-trained.
    Wow...

    Just...wow.

  4. #64
    Ex Member Array MadMac's Avatar
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    This thread has some really funny comments. I do like the comments on the dojo. Have you ever watched one of those MMA fights on TV? The guys are supposed to be trained in martial arts, yet all you see in a fight is flailing fists, wrestling, and the odd kick to the nether regions. A brawl like this one doesn't play out like one of those artistic King Fu movies. I don't care how many hours you practice ritual manual combat. This is a simply a punch up with a bunch of angry drunks.

    Of course, we have all the armchair lawyers who post about "disparity of force", and the general cheerleading for another chance to whip out a handgun.

    As you know, I'm the guy who reads this with a different slant. How could I have avoided this violent altercation? For all the detail, there is surprisingly little discussion of events leading up to the attack aside from a brief mention of some inflammatory texts.

    I had posted in a previous thread about using surrogates or proxies to fight for you. Getting tangled up in fights with fools never makes any sense. This includes angry text messaging, shouting over the fence, &c. I suspect his guy is part of the problem because of actions leading up to the assault. When you combine that with a Duke LaCrosse team-type DA, you will be going down.

    Avoidance is so much cheaper and easier than direct confrontation.
    Last edited by MadMac; December 9th, 2010 at 02:35 PM.

  5. #65
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMac View Post

    Of course, we have all the armchair lawyers who post about "disparity of force", and the general cheerleading for another chance to whip out a handgun.
    I prefer to call those people "Members of the Internet Bar Association" or "Matlock Law School Alumni"...

  6. #66
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMac View Post
    ...Avoidance is so much cheaper and easier than direct confrontation.
    THIS. ^^

    I'd printed out the entire document and read it page for page hardcopy, as to study not just just read/skim for entertainment value.
    The very first and _last_ thing to jump out to me was this statement;

    Page 1 of 25, paragraph 2
    Larry Hickey, his wife and young son lived on a cul-de-sac in a modest Tucson neighborhood.
    Across the street lived three adults – two 30-something sisters and the 26-year old boyfriend of one – along with the women’s two children.
    The households were only peripherally acquainted through limited contact between Hickey’s seven-year-old son and the two boys, ages 4 and 11, living in the house across the street.

    Page Pge 2 of 25, paragraph 2
    On the 15th, the women had argued – not in person, but by cell phone texts that included nasty name-calling.
    Mrs. Hickey filed a police report alleging telephonic harassment and threats.

    Source - http://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org/...ork_2010-9.pdf
    I'd read through this entire thing and my mind kept coming back to this.

    Again; "Avoidance is so much cheaper and easier than direct confrontation."

    Her is a pseudo family from across the street that apparently are the type to curse folk out by text, flick cigarettes at people and cross streets in tandem with intent to attack people and spend their time as well as expose their children to the type of man (men) who would think _first_ to approach a confrontation not to pull women off of a clearly being attacked male (as on his own property!) but rather to jump in as well throwing haymakers and sneak shots.
    These are a specific type and kind of person/people.

    Further his own wife is the type to not ignore texts from people acting/talking (texting) irrationally but rather to engage them in conversation of same...Never mind that these are people who both know where you LIVE but also do actually live across the street from you. That alone changes the dynamic significantly.

    The Hickey family as a whole, both Mr. and Mrs., would have been best off IF to start Mrs. Hickey had not engaged these people in their conversation to a point that it devolved into "nasty name calling" (!).

    More over this also very much appeals to what we here t DC.com speak to often which is the concept of 'assessment'.
    Had they been better at assessing the relative personality and being of who they associate with, and I doubt there were no prior clues toward these peoples demeanor, then very likely there would have been no as in this article unnamed item of issue to discuss muchless argue over to a point of "nasty name calling".
    Then with that there would be nobody getting shot, going to jail and spending a grip and nearly three years defending themself within not one but two and a quarter (civil damages claim) courts.

    "Avoidance is so much cheaper and easier than direct confrontation."

    Words and a mindset to live and let live, or die, by.

    - Janq

    P.S.
    As a hedge bet I am going to join the ACDL.
    Prior to hearing of this situation per the DC.com forum I'd not given this outfit any thought even as I had heard of them before via various other gunfu forums and type DC postings.
    All that they did to work with and support Mr. Hickey is amazing, considering he was NOT a member.

    Also this case is yet another very good example of why I personally carry OC/CS _in addition_ to gun, and espouse same to others.
    Mr. Hickey being as widely and variously trained as he was should have known to do same. Had he or his wife a can of Simma Down brand OC/CS at hand then all four involved persons very likely would have been able to retreat to their own sides to clean up and call the cops.
    At worst then it would be a charge of simple assault, with no guns shot.

    As well Mr. Hickey fell victim to the men don't hit/push/touch women logic trap. To heck with that.
    This was combat, not playground rules nor Ike Turner not liking Tina's clothing selection. Folks have to understand one is not the other.
    Two on one is two on one, and that is grown man odds to the attackers favor.
    He should have though to go on the offensive rather than take a defensive position. Do not allow people to beat on you, that is a losing proposition...As he discovered very quickly.
    Either pick up your feet fast and run as in to flee and put distance between you and the attacker(s), or attack...With great fury and ferocity so as to STOP further attack.
    Had he punched either or both in thee throat, stomped a foot, kicked a knee laterally or even smashed either ones face with an open palm...Either or both women would have been left stunned, possibly bloodied and bruised...But nobody shot and the Hickey's able to have time to make a retreat into their home.
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMac View Post
    This thread has some really funny comments. I do like the comments on the dojo. Have you ever watched one of those MMA fights on TV? The guys are supposed to be trained in martial arts, yet all you see in a fight is flailing fists, wrestling, and the odd kick to the nether regions. A brawl like this one doesn't play out like one of those artistic King Fu movies. I don't care how many hours you practice ritual manual combat. This is a simply a punch up with a bunch of angry drunks.

    Of course, we have all the armchair lawyers who post about "disparity of force", and the general cheerleading for another chance to whip out a handgun.

    As you know, I'm the guy who reads this with a different slant. How could I have avoided this violent altercation? For all the detail, there is surprisingly little discussion of events leading up to the attack aside from a brief mention of some inflammatory texts.

    I had posted in a previous thread about using surrogates or proxies to fight for you. Getting tangled up in fights with fools never makes any sense. This includes angry text messaging, shouting over the fence, &c. I suspect his guy is part of the problem because of actions leading up to the assault. When you combine that with a Duke LaCrosse team-type DA, you will be going down.

    Avoidance is so much cheaper and easier than direct confrontation.



    ^^^^^MadMac^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    You have to go and re-read what led up to the altercation.

    I will go over it briefly.
    He( the husband who shot the neighbors), was getting in between the irate neighbor lady and his own wife who the neighbor woman was advancing upon.
    They were trying to move away(up their own driveway) when said neighbor lady started cussing and swinging.
    He then pushed here down and away, and tried once again to get up their drive when he was blindsided by the other two friends of the assaulting party.
    Yes his wife was stupid for sending disparaging text's, but the neighbor who attacked them was ultimately at fault,,,IMHO!!!!!!!!
    I would rather die with good men than hide with cowards
    If you want to make God laugh, tell him your plans.
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  8. #68
    Member Array AWDeanSr's Avatar
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    I believe that the disparity of force in this case justified the shooting. This story should be an eye opener to some about our judicial system. Lawyers go to court to win...not bring justice!
    1 Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:



  9. #69
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AWDeanSr View Post
    Lawyers go to court to win...not bring justice!
    No.

    We go to court to make MONEY.

    It's just that winning pays better than loosing...

  10. #70
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AWDeanSr View Post
    ...This story should be an eye opener to some about our judicial system. Lawyers go to court to win...not bring justice!
    To that end this story and the defendants associated experience really should not be a shocker/eye opener at all to anyone who has been paying attention, and especially so those who have been member here for greater than say 90 days.
    Items such as this as related to other reported in the news instances are discussed here regularly...And the same thing is often said/advised; Do not bet nor depend on the prosecution to seek 'justice' or even to do the right/correct thing.
    Anyone who believes the judicial system is fair and non-prejudicial, would themself be a fool...Or born yesterday. : |

    This is why it is critically important to stay out of the legal system altogether in the first place, and same goes toward contact with police.
    Avoid these people at all costs by associated circumstances at all co$t. Seriously.

    To which if that means swallowing your pride and being called a prodder of mothers or to have your birthright questioned and to be shown various fingers on a hand as related to non-verbal language, then well let that stuff slide...And don't be sending people all manner of texts or e-mails to only wind up pouring water on a cooking oil fire.
    As well if contacted such as these people were then do all you can in the immediate to STOP the attacker(s) as succinctly as possible without necessarily resorting to use of worst case scenario for emergency use only lethal force.

    : |

    Two other things that struck me strange about this case is how Mr. Hickey upon discharging his firearm though to unload it and place it in public accessible space.
    Is that his training too? Why not holster it on his person instead, which is safer and most secure in the immediate aftermath of a combat interaction?

    As well he choose to go and perform medical first aid response toward the persons he shot.
    Why?
    Why did he feel authorized never mind compelled to do such a thing?
    I would not do this at all; Especially not as being the person that inflicted the harm.

    There are multiple items in this report to take note of and learn from as by proxy.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  11. #71
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post

    Two other things that struck me strange about this case is how Mr. Hickey upon discharging his firearm though to unload it and place it in public accessible space.
    Is that his training too? Why not holster it on his person instead, which is safer and most secure in the immediate aftermath of a combat interaction?
    That isn't Tactical Response doctrine as of June 2009, but I can ask him and report back.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by shockwave View Post
    If you attend a dojo and practice regularly, you will discover that a man's weight and size advantage are usually enough to deal with female opponents. A woman who trains on a constant basis can overcome those deficits, but it takes a lot of work.

    There is no need for a man to exert violence toward a woman. She can be easily scooped and set down on the ground without much trouble. The endgame analysis of this story is that the man was under-trained.
    http://movieclips.com/qWbMs-im-gonna...s-pulled-over/

    Michael

  13. #73
    VIP Member Array shockwave's Avatar
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    Just...wow.
    Spare me.

    Y'know, the gentleman in question did retreat to his driveway and did get his family out of harm's way, and then these lowlife trashlings followed him up onto his property and then continued the attack and he curled up into the fetal position.

    That didn't need to happen. Also, when I use the word "dojo" I'm trying to find a word that will make sense to the average reader, although that's not exactly what I train in, myself. But I do have lots of practice working with female opponents and I can tell you that just a hockey-style body check can be fairly effective.

    This thing did not need to unfold like this. Even though the guy finally was exonerated, he was way under-trained.
    "It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."

  14. #74
    Ex Member Array MadMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oneshot View Post
    ^^^^^MadMac^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    You have to go and re-read what led up to the altercation.

    I will go over it briefly.
    He( the husband who shot the neighbors), was getting in between the irate neighbor lady and his own wife who the neighbor woman was advancing upon.
    They were trying to move away(up their own driveway) when said neighbor lady started cussing and swinging.
    He then pushed here down and away, and tried once again to get up their drive when he was blindsided by the other two friends of the assaulting party.
    Yes his wife was stupid for sending disparaging text's, but the neighbor who attacked them was ultimately at fault,,,IMHO!!!!!!!!
    If you reread what I wrote a little more carefully, I was concerned about the events that preceded the attack that are not surprisingly left out of this lengthy story. Janq did a better job describing it than I did.

    I suspect Mr and Mrs Hickey, had they truly been ssafety-minded, could have avoided the direct attack.

    As you can see from what resulted, it matters not one whit what you think about the law. I'll accpet MitchellCT's take on legal issues before any other barstool lawyer without a juris doctor posting here.

    I still believe Mr and Mrs Hickey abetted this attack by their previous actions. I am NOT saying the attack was justified, nor am I exonerating the lowlife rednecks across the street. That said, my position still stands: avoidance is cheaper and easier than direct confrontation. Let me add: with anybody, over anything.

    You disagreement may be over dog poop, a tree limb, rowdy kids, or just a difference of opinion. These can escalarte to heated words and yelling, simple assault, then to violent assault and death. It's so much easier to stop it before you get to Step 2 than when you're at Step 5.

    Your opinion about dispararity of force means nothing. What the DA chooses to prosecute, and what your lawyer can defend will be how it plays out.

  15. #75
    Senior Member Array GlockJS's Avatar
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    Justice just ain't justice anymore. SMH

    I wonder if it ever was.
    Glock 26 9mm, Ruger LCR .357mag

    "Protect yourself at all times."

    "Don't forget, incoming fire has the right of way."-Clint Smith

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