Defending against multiple attackers.

Defending against multiple attackers.

This is a discussion on Defending against multiple attackers. within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Lets say you are going back to your ride in the parking garage one night and 2 or 3 men,who look to be in fair ...

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  1. #1
    Ex Member Array Glocksin's Avatar
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    Defending against multiple attackers.

    Lets say you are going back to your ride in the parking garage one night and 2 or 3 men,who look to be in fair shape come out from behind some cars,and surround you.

    Do you draw? Do you not draw,thinking that they are too close and would get to you before you can shoot all 3? What do you do?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Glocksin View Post
    Lets say you are going back to your ride in the parking garage one night and 2 or 3 men,who look to be in fair shape come out from behind some cars,and surround you.

    Do you draw? Do you not draw,thinking that they are too close and would get to you before you can shoot all 3? What do you do?
    Get out of there and call the police/security for an escort to your car. They haven't given you any cause to draw a weapon. They haven't given you any cause to use physical force. You have been frightened by their appearance. Fair enough. Act on the fright by leaving the scene and seeking LE assistance.

    If you live in a stand your ground state and want to play, stand your ground and go to your car. But, consider the risks you will be taking if your fear turns out to be well founded.

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    Ex Member Array EB31's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Get out of there and call the police/security for an escort to your car. They haven't given you any cause to draw a weapon. They haven't given you any cause to use physical force. You have been frightened by their appearance. Fair enough. Act on the fright by leaving the scene and seeking LE assistance.

    If you live in a stand your ground state and want to play, stand your ground and go to your car. But, consider the risks you will be taking if your fear turns out to be well founded.

    Perfectly put. Good advice.

  4. #4
    Ex Member Array Glocksin's Avatar
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    May i ask how you would leave if you are surrounded?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glocksin View Post
    May i ask how you would leave if you are surrounded?
    A quick swipe with Fox, worst case empty the can and run. Call 911 and report that you were in fear of your life and used LESS than lethal force to escape. Having a sidearm on you will show that you used reasonable force when deadly force was availible. Of course I would bet that when the responding officer arrives the thugs will be no where to be found and that will be the end of it because there will be no one to file a complaint against you.

  6. #6
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Glocksin, as a general rule of thumb, I detest these scenarios for several reasons, but this is a prime example. The information is so vague, that reasonable conclusions are impossible based on the lack of info. You might as well ask", what would you do if you were walking to your car and Godzilla was in the parking lot?" There is not enough background and other information here to work with.

  7. #7
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    You can not act until you are acted upon. As law abiding citizens, we are bound by law that there must be an immediate, and otherwise unavoidable threat of death or serious bodily injury before we can legally employ lethal force to defend ourselves. That means the attacker(s) must have the ability, the opportunity, and be placing you in jeopardy by deeds or actions simultaneously, before you are justified in using lethal force.

    Two or three people surrounding you, obviously puts together the components of opportunity (they have you surrounded), ability (there is "force in numbers" present), but unless and until they actually place you in jeopardy, by producing a weapon, or making physical threats by demanding money or some other threat, you do not have all three tenants of justifiably using lethal force present at the same time. Remember as Ayoob says, two out of three doesn't cut it.

    It also doesn't mean you can't act in some manner without pulling your pistol. Which is why, the more tools you have in your defensive tool box and the gray matter you possess between your ears comes into play and help you out of a bad situation.

    Remember, a lot of street confrontations occur in exactly this same way... you are confronted with a situation where only two of the three components (ability, opportunity and jeopardy) are present. You have to learn how you are going to respond and work through those situations.

    This is what happened to me about 30 years ago when I was 18 or 19 years old in a situation where I was unarmed, but not without means. I was at a shopping mall doing some last minute Christmas shopping and had bought my sister about 3 or 4 decorative, scented candles for her apartment. While going to my car utilizing zero situational awareness, I was suddenly surrounded by two thugs who stepped out from between two cars as I was walking past. I was startled, apprehensive and afraid because while I didn't even know these concepts at the time, I was faced with ability and opportunity. While I was still in the startled phase, one of the thugs proceeded to quickly put me in jeopardy by pulling a knife and demanding I "Give them my friggon money!" All I did was react. Mentally, I remember going from a state of fear and apprehension, to being literally pissed off in an instant. I immediately kicked the man with the knife right square in the groin as hard as I could. What he did was double over reaching for his groin and moved his head right in front of me. He just kind of stuck his head out there in front of me, and I clocked him as hard as I could over the head with the bag of candles which was like hitting him with a brick. Actually it was about 3 lbs of heavy and dense wax. He dropped the knife and fell to the ground. I stomped on him with my hiking boots about 3 or 4 times and gave him one kick in the face. The bag of candles split open and they went skidding across the parking lot. I was totally oblivious to the guy who was with him during the encounter until I turned around and saw him making a bee line across the parking lot. I was totally focused on the guy who had the knife and was doing the talking. When I got home and told my dad what happened he made me call the police and we went back and met them in the parking lot. Of course the thugs were long gone but I found my candles. One was broke in half and the others had some dents in them.

    Without any concepts of self defense, situational awareness or having a plan, I got tested and reacted. My fear only lasted a second or two before anger set in, and that carried the day. Of course I felt like the "cock of the block" afterwards, but I also learned a lot from that encounter. I experienced both tunnel vision and tachypsychia even though I didn't know a thing about what those words meant until I learned about them years later. The tunnel vision was pretty clear cut. As soon as I saw the knife, that's all I focused on. The knife and they guy with the knife. Had the other thug been armed (and maybe he was... I just didn't see it) and a little braver, it could have turned out a lot differently. But it didn't. The tachypsychia was what I didn't understand at the time. But things seemed to happen in slow motion. I distinctly remember being startled and scared silly as they basically stepped out from behind the car and surrounded me. I also remember when the knife was produced and he demanded my money that I became angry and remember thinking "you're not getting my last 30 dollars! I have more Christmas shopping to do!" The kicking of the guy in the groin and cold cocking him with the bag of candles were just an instinctive reaction. The stomping on him 3 or 4 times after he was down on the ground was in response to a deliberate thought process of thinking, "make sure he doesn't get up or he'll kill you!"

    In the long run, did I do the right thing? Hell yeah! Could I have done things differently? Absolutely! The bottom line is this... There's always more than one right answer, and there's always a ton of wrong answers. Nothing is going to be guaranteed. Looking back, I knew nothing of deadly force situations and in this case, it quickly moved into a justifiable use of deadly force situation had I been armed with a gun at the time.

    I know I've rambled a lot in this post, so getting back to your original question... You have to know exactly when things become a deadly force situation. Often times, situations present themselves with an incomplete triad where only two of the three components of ability, opportunity and jeopardy exist. But it can change in the blink of an eye and however you respond, you will have to be able to justify that response to some authority later on after the fact. We all hope, that all we have to do is explain what happens to the responding police and never have to explain what happened to a jury. But it's more than likely going to be a very fine line and it will happen in the blink of an eye. So prepare yourself as best as possible beforehand.
    Last edited by Bark'n; November 23rd, 2010 at 09:12 PM. Reason: deleted some of the bold type
    -Bark'n
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glocksin View Post
    May i ask how you would leave if you are surrounded?
    Directly past them. It is now their move. But, by moving I won't be surrounded and I'll be two steps closer to the outside. There will come a point (maybe) where jeopardy will be obvious and at that point all you can do is what ever it takes. Running might work. Kicking some knees out might work. But, mostly if you show some spine, they'll just back off. There may be a split second or two when you realize there is no choice but to draw and fire. (More and more I like the looks of the K-bar Lima posted about elsewhere.) However, this scenario happened in the open and in a public place and you have probability on your side that these guys don't want to risk going to jail or getting shot.

  9. #9
    Ex Member Array EB31's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    You can not act until you are acted upon. As law abiding citizens, we are bound by law that there must be an immediate, and otherwise unavoidable threat of death or serious bodily injury before we can legally employ lethal force to defend ourselves. That means the attacker(s) must have the ability, the opportunity, and be placing you in jeopardy by deeds or actions simultaneously, before you are justified in using lethal force.

    Two or three people surrounding you, obviously puts together the components of opportunity (they have you surrounded), ability (there is "force in numbers" present), but unless and until they actually place you in jeopardy, by producing a weapon, or making physical threats by demanding money or some other threat, you do not have all three tenants of justifiably using lethal force present at the same time. Remember as Ayoob says, two out of three doesn't cut it.

    It also doesn't mean you can't act in some manner without pulling your pistol. Which is why, the more tools you have in your defensive tool box and the gray matter you possess between your ears comes into play and help you out of a bad situation.

    Remember, a lot of street confrontations occur in exactly this same way... you are confronted with a situation where only two of the three components (ability, opportunity and jeopardy) are present. You have to learn how you are going to respond and work through those situations.

    This is what happened to me about 30 years ago when I was 18 or 19 years old in a situation where I was unarmed, but not without means. I was at a shopping mall doing some last minute Christmas shopping and had bought my sister about 3 or 4 decorative, scented candles for her apartment. While going to my car utilizing zero situational awareness, I was suddenly surrounded by two thugs who stepped out from between two cars as I was walking past. I was startled, apprehensive and afraid because while I didn't even know these concepts at the time, I was faced with ability and opportunity. While I was still in the startled phase, one of the thugs proceeded to quickly put me in jeopardy by pulling a knife and demanding I "Give them my friggon money!" All I did was react. Mentally, I remember going from a state of fear and apprehension, to being literally pissed off in an instant. I immediately kicked the man with the knife right square in the groin as hard as I could. What he did was double over reaching for his groin and moved his head right in front of me. He just kind of stuck his head out there in front of me, and I clocked him as hard as I could over the head with the bag of candles which was like hitting him with a brick. Actually it was about 3 lbs of heavy and dense wax. He dropped the knife and fell to the ground. I stomped on him with my hiking boots about 3 or 4 times and gave him one kick in the face. The bag of candles split open and they went skidding across the parking lot. I was totally oblivious to the guy who was with him during the encounter until I turned around and saw him making a bee line across the parking lot. I was totally focused on the guy who had the knife and was doing the talking. When I got home and told my dad what happened he made me call the police and we went back and met them in the parking lot. Of course the thugs were long gone but I found my candles. One was broke in half and the others had some dents in them.

    Without any concepts of self defense, situational awareness or having a plan, I got tested and reacted. My fear only lasted a second or two before anger set in, and that carried the day. Of course I felt like the "cock of the block" afterwards, but I also learned a lot from that encounter. I experienced both tunnel vision and tachypsychia even though I didn't know a thing about what those words meant until I learned about them years later. The tunnel vision was pretty clear cut. As soon as I saw the knife, that's all I focused on. The knife and they guy with the knife. Had the other thug been armed (and maybe he was... I just didn't see it) and a little braver, it could have turned out a lot differently. But it didn't. The tachypsychia was what I didn't understand at the time. But things seemed to happen in slow motion. I distinctly remember being startled and scared silly as they basically stepped out from behind the car and surrounded me. I also remember when the knife was produced and he demanded my money that I became angry and remember thinking "you're not getting my last 30 dollars! I have more Christmas shopping to do!" The kicking of the guy in the groin and cold cocking him with the bag of candles were just an instinctive reaction. The stomping on him 3 or 4 times after he was down on the ground was in response to a deliberate thought process of thinking, "make sure he doesn't get up or he'll kill you!"

    In the long run, did I do the right thing? Hell yeah! Could I have done things differently? Absolutely! The bottom line is this... There's always more than one right answer, and there's always a ton of wrong answers. Nothing is going to be guaranteed. Looking back, I knew nothing of deadly force situations and in this case, it quickly moved into a justifiable use of deadly force situation had I been armed with a gun at the time.

    I know I've rambled a lot in this post, so getting back to your original question... You have to know exactly when things become a deadly force situation. Often times, situations present themselves with an incomplete triad where only two of the three components of ability, opportunity and jeopardy exist. But it can change in the blink of an eye and however you respond, you will have to be able to justify that response to some authority later on after the fact. We all hope, that all we have to do is explain what happens to the responding police and never have to explain what happened to a jury. But it's more than likely going to be a very fine line and it will happen in the blink of an eye. So prepare yourself as best as possible beforehand.


    Great post, sound advice. Thanks for sharing your personal experience.

  10. #10
    VIP Member Array SIGguy229's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Glocksin, as a general rule of thumb, I detest these scenarios for several reasons, but this is a prime example. The information is so vague, that reasonable conclusions are impossible based on the lack of info. You might as well ask", what would you do if you were walking to your car and Godzilla was in the parking lot?" There is not enough background and other information here to work with.
    This is the better answer to the scenario.

    Why? Where are the three guys? Where are the closest exits? Including walking down the exit ramp). Near any stores? Time of day/night? Other people around? Is there security around? can you use your cell phone? What is their demeanor? Are they walking to their car? (that is, are there other cars around you that could be theirs?) Are they making any threatening statements? Are they carrying any weapons? (chains, knives, bats, etc.) If the scenario starts with three guys standing around you....how did that come to be? Nothing happens in a vacuum--everything is in a continuum...what events happened up until this point.

    Otherwise....

    GOD-ZI-RAAAAA!!!!
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    martyr is a fancy name for crappy fighter
    You have never lived until you have almost died. For those that have fought for it, life has a special flavor the protected will never know

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    Ex Member Array EB31's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIGguy229 View Post
    This is the better answer to the scenario.

    Why? Where are the three guys? Where are the closest exits? Including walking down the exit ramp). Near any stores? Time of day/night? Other people around? Is there security around? can you use your cell phone? What is their demeanor? Are they walking to their car? (that is, are there other cars around you that could be theirs?) Are they making any threatening statements? Are they carrying any weapons? (chains, knives, bats, etc.) If the scenario starts with three guys standing around you....how did that come to be? Nothing happens in a vacuum--everything is in a continuum...what events happened up until this point.

    Otherwise....

    GOD-ZI-RAAAAA!!!!

    Life seldom affords the luxary of having all of the answers neatly displayed for us. Especially when faced with a real life situation. Nearly every time a real life confrontation is as vague as the op's scenerio. You don't know if the person is armed, you don't know who they are, why they are there, what they want, what their true intentions are...etc and so on. This is where reasoning, common sense and the ability to think on your feet comes in handy.

    I feel bad for those that need every answer to every possible question in order to form an opinion. Even if it's just for a hypothetical on a internet forum. Such limited thinking could wind up costing someone their life in real world applications.

    And things do happen just that fast. You're walking, suddenly the doors of a vehicle open and 3 guys get out and are walking towards you. Nothing "led up to it". It just happened. And now you are in a vague scenerio. No idea what they are up to, if they are armed. You have to think on your feet and react accordingly to what's taking place around you. There are not set parameters, no script, no rule book to follow. Just you, your instincts and whatever skill set you might have.

  12. #12
    Distinguished Member Array tcox4freedom's Avatar
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    And the winner by KO is Bark'n!

    GREAT post Bark'n.
    It sounds like you and I shopped at the same place 30yrs ago. (I've had one or two similar events happen to me.)

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    Ex Member Array Glocksin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Glocksin, as a general rule of thumb, I detest these scenarios for several reasons, but this is a prime example. The information is so vague, that reasonable conclusions are impossible based on the lack of info. You might as well ask", what would you do if you were walking to your car and Godzilla was in the parking lot?" There is not enough background and other information here to work with.
    I am very sorry,i thought i was doing a good thing by giving a situation but keeping the information simple.This allows for a better discussion as well as variables to be brought in.I recall the 'Picnic' scenario where some bitched things like 'Its too strict,i would never be in this situation'. Just trying to level things out.Your pretty cool,but we do have several different opinions.Here is mine.

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    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    I am not slamming you, at least thats not my intent. But regardless of opinion to the contrary, even in sudden life occurences we have more information at hand. There is always more to it than just what if.

    For instance, in your scenario, what is your state of mind before the occurence? Were you shopping, leaving work or what? Were the 3 men visible before they walked from behind the car as you walked near it , or apparently making an attempt to hide from you until you were near? How did three men close the gap on you so fast as you were walking by? Did one stand in your way and impede your progress as the others hurried to envelop you?

    Contrary to ones statement about not everything having detail and feeling sorry for ones who need every possible answer to every possible question, the fact is, that is what seperates us from monkeys. We make milli second deductions by processing information and making decisions therein. It is the little details that make the difference in any scenario, and you would have to be a borderline primate not to realize this.

    Your intention is good Glocksin, not trying to demean you at all. But there is always more detail if we are not half catatonic walking around.

  15. #15
    Ex Member Array Glocksin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glocksin View Post
    come out from behind some cars,and surround you.
    It would be a sudden thing.

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