Ready for a fight? Or looking for a fight?
This is a discussion on Ready for a fight? Or looking for a fight? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I'm looking to avoid a fight, period....
November 24th, 2010 02:15 PM
I'm looking to avoid a fight, period.
November 24th, 2010 02:27 PM
Never ever looking for trouble................will always avoid a confrontation if possible with a friendly gesture and always try to vacate.
Should the need arise to defend my life or my family............It's On and It's Ugly.
November 24th, 2010 03:38 PM
The actual carrying does not mean you are looking to use your gun.Looking would be me when i was 15,looking into martial arts and wanting to show off my skill.Me and my friends do get crazy and really want to fight when someone makes us mad,but were not looking.I dont start fights,i finish em,
November 24th, 2010 04:39 PM
Only jerk with shiny t-shirts and popped collars look for fights. Haha, but seriously, I'm never looking for a fight, but I tried to make sure I'm always ready if It can't be avoided. I've never really been confrontational.
November 24th, 2010 06:52 PM
I just cannot get my handle on the basic question of this thread. If you are looking for a fight, and that means, IMO, anyone who you decide needs to be taught a lesson, then what you are doing with a CCW is beyond my understanding, unless there is something else between the lines that I do not appreciate. This entire forum is called "Defensive Carry"--what is it about those words that someone does not understand?
November 24th, 2010 07:40 PM
I'm looking to avoid a fight. But hopefully, if it happens, I'm prepared for one as much as I physically can. Carrying a firearm makes me want to avoid a fight all the more.
Retired USAF E-8. Official forum curmudgeon.
Lighten up and enjoy life because:
Paranoia strikes deep, into your life it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid...
Buffalo Springfield - For What It's Worth
November 24th, 2010 07:51 PM
If one wishes to avoid snakebite, you must look for snakes and be prepared to take the necessary action. I see little difference between that and the fight question.
"I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".
November 24th, 2010 08:15 PM
Guantes has a valid point., the difference is looking for the fight not looking to fight
"The value you put on the lost will be determined by the sacrifice you are willing to make to seek them until they are found."
November 24th, 2010 08:23 PM
As prepared as I can be in any given situation... can never be as ready as I'd like to be, never looking to fight.
Ready and looking, in my reading of the OP, implies expectation of an eventuality (to me) and requires a certain amount of "gearing up" from where I am on a daily basis. Like you KNOW it's coming. That would be condition RED all the time. nope.
Prepared for the possibility, yes. For the eventuality, no.
It could be worse!
November 24th, 2010 08:24 PM
I see your point, but would like to add that one looks for the snakes so they can be avoided. If you go looking for them to test your skill at avoiding the bite, that is a totally different thing.
Originally Posted by Guantes
I will avoid a fight if at all possible, but I can tell you that if I am forced to fight I will be as violent as I need to be to stop the threat. If my family is with me, I'll find more violence from somewhere to add to the mix, to stop the threat.
I have come to grips with the fact, and explained it in detail to my Wife, that if I have to defend myself or them I am prepared to go all the way if the threat does not stop. That is with my gun, my knife, my hands or the rock on the sidewalk. It took her some time to get used to that fact, she is "OK" with it now because she knows that will be the very LAST resort.
"Don't hit a man if you can possibly avoid it; but if you do hit him, put him to sleep." - Theodore Roosevelt
November 24th, 2010 08:46 PM
The difference, really is in attitude.
Does carrying a gun make you feel more aggressive? More confident, therefore less aggressive?
What's your basic attitude when you're carrying .... a bad-ass chip on your shoulder or comfortable in the knowledge of your relative safety?
I'm in favor of gun control -- I think every citizen should have control of a gun.
1 Thess. 5:16-18
November 24th, 2010 09:10 PM
When I was young and invincible I was always "looking for a fight", I was rarely "ready for a fight". Then I was thrown into the fight(DS/DS) that I was definitely not ready for and realized that looking for the fight was an attempt at proving what couldn't be proven by bravado. Being a Man is more than being a badass it is being the rock and foundation for all that is important, that is your family. From the day I set foot back on U.S. soul I decided to take responsibility for me and mine. Now I am "ready for a fight" and actively avoid any confrontation possible. To paraphrase others here, "look for the fight, for the sake of avoiding the fight".
November 25th, 2010 11:19 AM
04 Sept 10
"... and, I said to myself, 'Sit down! Sit down; you're rockin' the boat!'"
"Sit down! You're Rockin' the Boat," from the 1950 Broadway Musical, "Guys and Dolls," and sung by Frank Sinatra in the 1955 movie version.
When friend and colleague, Mas Ayoob, defines lawful self-defense for his students, he always includes the phrase, "... otherwise unavoidable" when describing a threat confronting a person considering forceful defensive actions.
I've shamelessly borrowed that phrase (and many others from Mas), because I think it is the best way to emphasize the principle that legitimate self-defense is always "involuntary." That is, when recapitulating what you did, your first sentence should always start with, "I was where I had a right to be, minding my own business, when...;" and end with, "... so you see, I had no choice!"
When a pernicious, deadly threat is thrust upon you, through no desire, nor invitation, of your own, you need to do whatever is reasonably necessary to keep from getting hurt, even including the application of deadly force. That is your right. In addition, as noted above, you probably have no choice!
The criminal-justice system will subsequently look upon the circumstances that lead to your defensive actions as "unfortunate," but upon what you did as "reasonable." The aftermath will still be unpleasant, and expensive, but at least you'll be alive to worry about it. In the USA, unlike in most other countries, reasonable self-defense is still your right.
So, when all lesser options are unavailable/impracticable, and the threat is imminent and deadly, yes, then you may take a stand, and clamor like a champion... assuming you've got the spittle for it!
"Perfection" is not required. "Reasonableness" is. And, as the saying goes, "There is no pillow so soft as a clear conscience!"
The foregoing is not in dispute, at least among most of us.
What does generate a great deal of impassioned discussion is the wisdom of forcefully inserting ourselves into an egregious situation in which we were not otherwise involved!
At the NTI a few years ago, I found myself in the middle of an urban, terrorist incident. My goal was, of course, to extricate myself, unhurt.
On my way to a place of at least temporary safety (the concrete entrance to the subway), I had the opportunity to pick up a Kalashnikov rifle from the body of a dead terrorist. I considered leaving it there, so as not to elevate my profile, but I decided to take it with me, along with several magazines.
Shortly afterward, I noticed several terrorist suspects, clearly armed with RPGs, one hundred meters away. I was pretty sure they saw me too. They may have even seen me gun-down several of their colleagues minutes earlier, but they otherwise displayed little interest in me.
I concluded that their RPGs were likely intended for bigger targets than just a single individual, even one armed with an AK. So, I elected to not engage them, although I easily could have ( and probably would have gotten them all, at least the ones that I could see), and continued to make my way to safety.
At the NTI, there is seldom a "school-solution." Options are merely pointed out and discussed, and I was asked if I had considered eliminating the RPG threat. I answered in the affirmative, but confirmed that my non-engagement strategy was indeed deliberate.
In my defense, I indicated that, since they were not creating a problem for me, I decided not to create a problem for them! For the record, it was my decision, and, of course, we never get to know what "could have been."
In a less dramatic scenario, any of us may witness a violent crime, in progress, but one that does not otherwise involve us. The question of precipitous involvement/insertion is always a personal one and requires a frank discussion between you and your own conscience.
Of course, the safest course of action is always non-involvement and rapid separation. Any time you elect to step forward in such a situation, the law requires you to act in a "non-negligent" manner, whatever that means! You're opening up a real can of worms, however you decide to handle it.
A less-risky option is, from a position or relative safety, to yell out something like, "Hey! You leave her alone! I'm calling the police." That can be done with a great deal less risk to you than physical involvement.
It is not my place to tell you what to do. My job is to be sure you know what is likely going to happen when you do!
"Reasonableness" is a tricky term, and one difficult to define during the excitement of a life-threatening scenario.
It is best to think about all this in advance, and then come to one of our Scenario-Based Training Programs, so you can get hands-on experience with all the various behavioral options you're considering. We're doing two this fall, one in Chicago, IL, and one in Columbia, SC.
In the 1959 feature film, "Rio Bravo," "Colorado" Ryan, (played by Rick Nelson) is asked by Sheriff John T Chance (played by John Wayne) about his skill with a gun. Ryan acknowledges that he is extremely good with a gun, and then adds:
"... but there is something I'm even better at"
"What's that," asks the Sheriff
"...minding my own business!"
Now, that is the right answer!
November 25th, 2010 11:50 AM
More on "Voluntary Fighting"
05 Sept 10
Comments on "voluntary fighting," from friend and eminent colleague, Dave Spaulding:
"I remain amazed at the number of students who seem enamored (albeit discreetly) with the thought of becoming involved in some type of deadly combat. Most are pitiably naive and have scant concept of what a real fight entails, and that, no matter the odds, they'll still have a good chance of losing!
Even the best training falls short with regard to one critical aspect: there is never genuine expectation of injury, nor death!
Few of us receive anywhere near the training of our Special Operations Forces, yet they are killed regularly by less-trained, less-motivated, less-hale conscripts, with ageing, poorly-maintained AKs, who haphazardly stick them over walls and yank on the trigger. You can kill most of them, but there is ever the issue of the 'lucky shot!'
Physical fighting should only be undertaken when you have no choice. When threats can be avoided, they should be. When disengagement can be accomplished at low risk, it should be.
However, when forced to take a stand, a stand worth fighting, and dying, for, then we should counter with great skill, surprise, speed, potency, advantage, and enthusiasm! When you must strike, put him to sleep!"
Comment: When Solomon, in Proverbs 26:17, says: "Who passes by, and meddles in strife belonging not to him, is like one who takes a dog by the ears," his point is mostly lost on egghead theologians, but not on dog-owners! Who are familiar with dogs know and understand that grabbing a dog by the ears will, via a short route, get you bit!
Thus, there is a price one must be willing to pay when "... coming to the aid of the weak and innocent." An especially worthwhile consideration for the young and naive, who just got their CCW permit, and erroneously regard it as a "Hero License!"
05 Sept 10
Comments from a friend in the Phillippines:
"In some countries, like mine for example, there is a cultural imperative not to back down from any fight. Such a display of diplomacy is deemed frail and 'unmanly.'
To me, this sort of thinking is insane, but it is deeply imbedded in several of our native cultures.
In countries like yours (USA), police arrive immediately when there is a report of 'shots-fired' or injured people. Police take control without delay. The scene is thoroughly investigated. Witnesses are interviewed. Evidence is collected and cataloged. People are arrested, and the criminal-justice system instantly kicks in.
Not over here!
In less-developed parts of our Country, police may not arrive for days. When they finally show up, they often do nothing and depart straightaway. Sometimes, they never arrive! 'Investigations' of shootings are haphazard and often non-existent. Arrests are made sometimes, but frequently there are none. Bodies are typically buried before they can be examined. Many are never found.
With our low LE presence, 'trouble' typically comes in strings of two or three separate incidents. When you get into a shooting, you may quickly exit the area, but family and friends of the deceased will likely regroup and then pursue you. Typically, they will stage their retaliatory assault on your home, but it may well happen a block or two away from your initial contact. Thus, a second attack can happen within minutes, hours, or weeks, and it won't be investigated either!
Here is what we have to consider:
(1) After successfully dealing with the initial problem, you may be low on ammunition and thus run-dry during succeeding attack(s).
(2) When you get into a shooting, there are always long-term consequences. You can never be confident it is 'over.'
No sane person would ever want to inflict this magnitude of danger on himself! As such, I teach escape and disengagement even more vigorously than you do!
When fighting is unavoidable, do what you must, but around here fully expect that your next lethal challenge may be upon you within minutes, or seconds!"
Comment: Cultural imperatives cannot be completely ignored, or course, but neither must we be a slave to them.
A little respect goes a long way. So does a little diplomacy!
Death is "one-way."
November 25th, 2010 11:57 AM
I enjoy living, and feel I have a moral responsibility to my family to remain living and providing for them as long as possible. I have avoided fights to the point of looking like a chicken. I will not ever go looking for a fight, and will not be goaded or drawn into a fight in order to save face or for any other silly notion of proving my manhood.
I will defend my family and I will defend my life, and I am fully prepared and well trained to do so. And I have had to do so in the past. No one ever died in those instances, but they could have. I was fully prepared to go that far if need be.
"The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."
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