Need help, friend pulled on someone. Castle doctrine in MI

This is a discussion on Need help, friend pulled on someone. Castle doctrine in MI within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Please don't use this thread to give opinions on whether he should have pulled or not. Last night, I got a call from a good ...

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Thread: Need help, friend pulled on someone. Castle doctrine in MI

  1. #1
    Member Array CZAD6's Avatar
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    Need help, friend pulled on someone. Castle doctrine in MI

    Please don't use this thread to give opinions on whether he should have pulled or not. Last night, I got a call from a good friend that cc's. He qas having a non alcoholic dance party (christian university student) and I was actually there earlier but my wife was at work anyway so I went home around 10. So I wake up from him calling at 12:45. He tells me he pulled a gun on a guy.

    Main details, the guy gets upset that my friend asks him to be more careful because he is spilling coca cola all over there brand new carpet. He is immediately aggressive and escorts my 165 lb friend outside and shoves him down the stairs. He then kicks him and continues to shove. The guy (300 lbs) is now guarding the door to my friends house so he waits outside to let things cool down. Eventually, he thinks it is safe and tries to re enter but is again met by this same guy. The guy comes at him amd tries to throw him down the concrete but my friend manages to grab his leg. He stands up and the guy rushes him again and my friend pulls. Immediately the guy stops. Turns out he came drunk with a friend that was invited to the party.

    The guy was very apologetic. I told my friend to make a statement as soon as possible. So he drives down to the station. They told him he was not justified and that if the guy presses charges, he could get charged with brandishing. In Michigans castle doctrine law, one scenario talks of someone removing you from your premises against your will. It seems to me he is justified, although it is a fine line and I personally would have refrained from pulling at this point. But I also wasn't the one getting the crap kicked out of him either. Can anybody help interpret this law. I also feel like with a guy almost twice his size, desparity of force plays a role and serious bodily harm from getting his head slammed on the concrete.

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    VIP Member Array tkruf's Avatar
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    I agree with you, but your friend needs to contact a lawyer.
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    Member Array ExHippie's Avatar
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    yep...lawyer is the way to go...on the surface it sounds justified, fear of serious physical harm or death, but each state is different

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    Member Array Greg Foster's Avatar
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    Lawyer ASAP!

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    Member Array CZAD6's Avatar
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    Agreed guys, thanks. I tried getting one on the phone last night but no one answered. I will tell him.

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    Member Array Binder's Avatar
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    Here's a new guys take on this.......Really there were three things happened here. First he was removed from his home. Second he was assaulted and third he came back for possibly more.
    Quote Originally Posted by CZAD6 View Post
    the guy gets upset that my friend asks him to be more careful because he is spilling coca cola all over there brand new carpet. He is immediately aggressive and escorts my 165 lb friend outside ..
    Define "escorts". If he was removed by force this may have been the time to pull. If he walked out on his own he may have been better to just call the police.
    Quote Originally Posted by CZAD6 View Post
    and shoves him down the stairs. He then kicks him and continues to shove..
    Here he's assaulted but doesn't pull which I would not have either. What's important here is he determines that the situation doesn't warrant pulling his weapon. Why didn't he call the police after this happened?
    Quote Originally Posted by CZAD6 View Post
    The guy (300 lbs) is now guarding the door to my friends house so he waits outside to let things cool down. Eventually, he thinks it is safe and tries to re enter but is again met by this same guy. The guy comes at him amd tries to throw him down the concrete but my friend manages to grab his leg. He stands up and the guy rushes him again and my friend pulls. Immediately the guy stops. Turns out he came drunk with a friend that was invited to the party..
    In the last scenario he had determined that a weapon isn't needed (in the second scenario) and now he's going willingly back to the same situation. I won't give my opinion on if he should have pulled............If your friend is changed with brandishing or anything else he needs a lawyer not a internet talking guy with only two posts. If your friend feels he needs he could pursue assault changes on the other guy but by not calling the police when it happened it probably won't go anywhere.....02c

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    Member Array Rasher's Avatar
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    What county does he live in, I have contacts for lawyers but dunt know how far they are willing to travel.

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    It is a bit of a strange story. Let me see if I get this right. Huge guy has shoved owner out of his own place, blocked him from re-entering, attacks him when he attempts to re-enter. What wasn't quite clear was if the last part, where he pulls, happened inside or outside the place the owner had a right to be. (I'm not sure if that is relevant of not. Seems pretty parallel to coming home and finding an intruder.)

    It sounds to me like there are two different ways of looking at this. 1) Your friedn could have called the police instead of fighting with the guy to get back into his own place. 2) Hey, its his place and if there's some dude in there who doesn't belong, was uninvited, and is assaultive when asked to leave, at least in Castle doctrine states using force to remove the person or to stop the assaultive behavior would seem OK.

    Right now it seems the police only have your friend's side of the story, and it is not corroborated by the "drunk." Is that right?

    If that is the case and it remains the case, e.g., if your friend didn't know the drunk's name, maybe that will be that.

    OTOH, if the police investigate and find the "drunk" who then has a different story backed in part by some third "friend's" words, your friend could have trouble.

    SO, time to call a lawyer and no more conversations with the police.

    I do think that it being your friend's place to start with, and the guest being uninvited, and the guest having committed the initial assault, and the disparity of force due to size, all should weigh rather heavily in your friend's favor, but one just never knows how LEOs and DAs will look at things.

    Sounds like your friend is lucky he didn't get badly hurt, so with that in mind he is one lucky fellow.

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    "They told him he was not justified and that if the guy presses charges, he could get charged with brandishing."

    I'm willing to bet the big el dumbo is jusy happy to see the sun rise, if he even remembers what happend last night. And, I doubt he'll risk being a bigger fool by making any charges.

    To begin with, that's not some desk sergeant's determination: he was there; he wasn't the one being pounded. LEOs are not the world's best authorities on law in many cases. I wouldn't have said squat to the LEOs until questioned, and then with a lawyer on hand. No need in self-discrimination.

    If I'm reading this right, some stranger tossed your friend out of his own house? Why your friend didn't call the LEOs and have the guy tresspassed and hauled away is beyond me on assault charges.

    I don't know if he needs a lawyer at this point (no charges filed), but he'd better have one's phone number tucked in his wallet just in case.
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    Typical.

    Someone is threatened and assaulted by someone twice his size, but he has the gun and therefore is the bad guy.

    Sheesh.
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    I agree with the others who said he needs to contact a lawyer ASAP.

    Another example of why your cell phone is a defensive weapon you never want to be without. Rather than try and re-enter the house, he should have called the police and had the guy removed by them.
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    Senior Member Array stevem174's Avatar
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    Wow....the guy gets "escorted" out of his own house. He would be fine if I were on the jury. I agree he needs a lawyer ASAP.
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    Lawyer.
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    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Contacting a lawyer is not a bad idea. What your firend might do is contact the friend that the drunk came with and have him feel out the drunk and what his intentions are, if any. Not absolute, but the info couldn't hurt.
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    Senior Member Array Moga's Avatar
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    "They told him he was not justified and that if the guy presses charges, he could get charged with brandishing."
    Acknowledging that laws differ from state to state, I feel pretty confident that if your friend drew down on someone, and if actions aren't permitted under Michigan's Castle Doctrine, he would be facing a charge a bit more serious than "brandishing" a firearm. Think more along the lines of felony assault. I can't imagine that a warrant would be necessary before enforcement action on a felony would take place either. Based on these observations, I wouldn't worry about it much. I would bet the comment was spoken by a officer lacking understanding of the finer nuances of firearm law.

    Just the same, it's always the best idea to get counsel from a practicing attorney that has trial experience with firearm law when ever one's gun clears leather and is pointed at another human being. The italicized caveat is very important.

    I have to admit that I am surprised that an open carry state even has a brandishing statute on its books, but Michigan surely does. I hope it is all sorted without too much trouble.
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