NYPD trains for Mumbai Style Attack

NYPD trains for Mumbai Style Attack

This is a discussion on NYPD trains for Mumbai Style Attack within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Given the scenario discussion, I thought it best fit in this category. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...668093114.html By SEAN GARDINER (Please see Corrections and Amplifications below.) Earlier this month ...

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Thread: NYPD trains for Mumbai Style Attack

  1. #1
    Member Array scott625's Avatar
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    NYPD trains for Mumbai Style Attack

    Given the scenario discussion, I thought it best fit in this category.

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...668093114.html

    By SEAN GARDINER

    (Please see Corrections and Amplifications below.)

    Earlier this month the New York Police Department ran an antiterrorism exercise simulating an attack on the city.

    A team of terrorists unleashed a coordinated series of bombings and gun attacks around the city in the simulation. At one point, terrorists attacked New York police officials visiting wounded officers in a hospital. By the time the daylong attacks were over, dozens of people had been killed and many more wounded.

    The NYPD simulation was different from any of the terrorist incidents that have actually hit New York, such as the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks where terrorists hijacked planes to destroy the World Trade Center, or the foiled Times Square car-bombing attempt in May of this year.

    Instead, the simulation deliberately mirrored the 2008 massacre in Mumbai. Within minutes of one another on the night of Nov. 26, 2008, 10 gunmen attacked various locations in the Indian city, including two luxury hotels, a hospital and a railway station. The attack stretched on for three days as hostages were taken at several of the locations. Ultimately, 174 people were killed.

    Until Mumbai, NYPD counterterrorism officials felt reasonably comfortable that they were prepared for any type of terrorist attack. But that comfort level was built on preparing for a single event, not a series of coordinated attacks that would terrorize a city for days on end.

    "The Mumbai attack two years ago was a bit of a game changer," Mitchell Silber, head of the NYPD's intelligence analysis division, said. "It was a model that most counterterrorism practitioners hadn't really considered. The armed gunmen roaming around the city taking hostages, that wasn't something we had seen by any jihadist group. That was a real eye-opener." Mr. Silber said the more NYPD officials learned about the Mumbai attacks "the more similarities we saw between Mumbai city and New York City." Both, he said, are financial centers; both are surrounded by water on three sides; both get intense media attention.

    The latest simulation made additional sense, he said, in light of the rumors this past fall that jihadists were planning another "Mumbai-style" attack somewhere in Europe.

    So on Dec. 3, the NYPD's top brass gathered inside the department's headquarters in downtown Manhattan, in the Police Academy on East 20th Street and a third location, which police don't want to identify, that will be activated in the event police headquarters is destroyed. More than 40 senior commanders took part, and a facilitator introduced "injects," or new complications, into the exercise.

    According to a memo reviewed by The Wall Street Journal, the police were given a fictional scenario that began with President Barack Obama visiting New York for a bill signing. At the same time, convicted Times Square bomber Faisal Shahzad was scheduled to appear in federal court. The attacks began with bombings in downtown that resulted in 18 dead and dozens injured. The president went ahead with the bill signing at the World Trade Center site, when another bomb went off nearby. He was whisked away.

    The attack wasn't over. Six gunmen piled out of a van at Herald Square and opened fire on shoppers and pedestrians. They then entered the Macy's department store and took 26 hostages.

    As in Mumbai, police in the simulation had trouble containing and anticipating the terrorists. At one point, police who tried to rescue hostages were shot by snipers. Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly and Chief of Department Joseph Esposito went to Bellevue Hospital to visit wounded police officers, then both were incapacitated when a bomb exploded inside the emergency room, according to the simulation.

    This is the eighth such large-scale tabletop exercise held by the NYPD since Mumbai, according to Paul Browne, the NYPD's spokesman. He said this exercise provided several valuable lessons. For instance, conventional wisdom was that the best way to deal with multiple subway bombings was to shut down all mass transportation and evacuate everyone by foot, Mr. Browne said. But the exercise showed the advantage of continuing to use buses during an attack to shepherd civilians out of lower Manhattan.

    The exercise also showed that the first responding officers to Macy's shouldn't have evacuated people and waited for reinforcements, the traditional response in a hostage situation. Instead, the police could have minimized casualties by quickly finding and killing the terrorists who were shooting people.

    Mr. Browne said the exercise also served as a reminder that the NYPD needs to obtain or update floor plans of the city's large department stores in case hostage-taking or some other standoff occurs there. Currently, the NYPD keeps floor plan copies for all of the city's major hotels and many popular buildings.

    The department has taken other steps to prepare for a similar attack. Since Mumbai, Mr. Browne said, the NYPD has trained and equipped an addition 375 officers to use "heavy weapons" for a prolonged siege situation. The heavy weapons—MP5 submachine guns and Mini-14 semiautomatic carbine rifles—are needed to counteract military-style assault weapons like the ones used in Mumbai.

    Lastly, police are preparing for more chaos. They now assume that when they advise civilians to "shelter in place," many will flee the island on foot as they did during the last major power blackout. That means police will need to protect pedestrians leaving Manhattan via the East River bridges or ferries.

    Corrections and Amplifications

    New Delhi is the capital of India. An earlier version of this article incorrectly called Mumbai the capital and a subsequent correction incorrectly called it Delhi.
    [NYTERRORmap]

    Write to Sean Gardiner at sean.gardiner@wsj.com


  2. #2
    Senior Member Array TheGreatGonzo's Avatar
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    I spent many years living in NYC and still love it. The best thing NYC could ever do to prevent a Mumbai style attack, or at the very least, end it quickly, would be to allow private citizens to own and carry firearms. As it is now, no matter how much NYPD trains, such an attack in Manhattan would be absolutely devastating because nobody will well armed to fight back. Some brave warriors will still fight with whatever they have at hand, but they will be at a sore disadvantage.
    Gonzo
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    I'm heartened to hear that the NYPD has the brains and foresight to look at the possibility of a decentralized attack on the city.

    It's a small point, but why Mini 14s and not ARs (or even AKs) is beyond me.
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    I lived my entire life in NYC & having worked in the private security business for many years there, Let me just say this about NYC & it's Police procedure's Not putting them down but slightly their responce time to any, 911 call is as slow as can be,in past years & their 10:13 calls ( officer needs assistance, or help ) has been just as slow in the year's past, Currently, I cannot say, because I have been retired & Moved out of the city many years ago, bottom line I personnely do not think that they, being under the mercy of such a Liberal minded Mayor Blumberg, who could not even shine the shoes of the former Mayor Ruddy Giuliani who was the Mayor when I was still working down there, Under him the Police department was run with prescision timing & quick responce time to all calls & emergencies, Again I dont think that the NYCPD is up to any standard for handeling any terriost incident's, that should arise, any time soon, I hope that I am wrong, I still have a lot of famly & close friends living throught the five bourough's there

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    Distinguished Member Array alachner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGreatGonzo View Post
    I spent many years living in NYC and still love it. The best thing NYC could ever do to prevent a Mumbai style attack, or at the very least, end it quickly, would be to allow private citizens to own and carry firearms. As it is now, no matter how much NYPD trains, such an attack in Manhattan would be absolutely devastating because nobody will well armed to fight back. Some brave warriors will still fight with whatever they have at hand, but they will be at a sore disadvantage.
    Gonzo
    I completely agree! In the event of a Mumbai Style attack in NYC, the first responders would be civilians so it would be best to have them armed to be able to respond to an attack. Nonetheless, I think that the attackers will probably be armed with heavy sub-machine guns so a pistol or revolver will not do very much against heavy artillery.
    "If you carry a gun, people will call you paranoid. That's ridiculous... If I have a gun, what in the hell do I have to be paranoid for?" [Clint Smith - Thunder Ranch]

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    As always it would be a difficult to identify the GG's from the BG's. That would always be a problem if a number of concealed carry permit holders try to publicly stop an attack. How would the LEO's know who the BG is????????????
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  7. #7
    Senior Member Array TheGreatGonzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IWLAFART View Post
    As always it would be a difficult to identify the GG's from the BG's. That would always be a problem if a number of concealed carry permit holders try to publicly stop an attack. How would the LEO's know who the BG is????????????
    While I recognize that danger, I don't believe it is sufficient reason to deny citizens their right to defend themselves and others in the event of an attack. In fact, with all due respect, I don't think it is even close to sufficient reason.
    Gonzo
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    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    At least they are starting to pull their heads out of the sand, but it may be too little too late.
    I've actually expected something like the scenario NYPD envisioned for quite some time. There are dark days coming folks, and that is one of my greatest fears.

    Biker

  9. #9
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    They are doomed to failure if they think that MP5's and Mini 14 are "heavy" weapons.

    The only way to prepare is to arm every single officer there with some serious weapons and train them to use them to specifically target and kill shooters. Until they get that politicially correct trash out of their thought process they will never be prepared.

    On the other hand, NYC along has over 30,000 + officers. With the right training and mentality, that could be a force to be rekoned with. A few terrrorists start shooting and they would be see the wrath of hell descended upon them. I have no doubt that the officers would be willing to deal with it. Until they get the political pansys out of their administration and get some meaningful leadership, they'll never be as good as they could be.

    As it is now, that prevalent anti gun mentality that NYC is known for, is the precise reason that it will be targeted at some time in the future. Its already been made easy for terrorists to win.
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    Distinguished Member Array alachner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    They are doomed to failure if they think that MP5's and Mini 14 are "heavy" weapons.
    I completely agree. Most likely the terrorists will be armed with AK47 so they should definitely arm themselves with something tougher than a 9mm MP5 or a semi-automatic Ruger Mini 14. The perfect choice is to arm each officer with automatic AR-15's.
    "If you carry a gun, people will call you paranoid. That's ridiculous... If I have a gun, what in the hell do I have to be paranoid for?" [Clint Smith - Thunder Ranch]

  11. #11
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    As it is now, that prevalent anti gun mentality that NYC is known for, is the precise reason that it will be targeted at some time in the future. Its already been made easy for terrorists to win.
    I agree Hot Guns.
    Not to turn this in to a political thread, but when such happens I shudder to think of what solutions the powers that be will come up with.

    Biker

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    Member Array wolfshead's Avatar
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    While our Government continues to think Pakistan is our "ally" in the war on terror and gives $20 billion a year to them, the LeT is planning more Mumbai style attacks in Europe and right here on US soil. http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe...lot/index.html

    I lost a friend and his family in the attacks. He was a manager in one of the hotels. They massacred his family because he wouldn't release to them the names of American patrons staying at the hotel. My uncle who is a Rabbi there escaped unhurt. The images I have seen of the brutality of the killings can unnerve anyone. I cannot even post those images on here. The victims were sexually assaulted and dismembered.

    This threat is real and possible. I hope every city not just NYC has a plan. I hope the legally armed citizens have a plan as well.

    Our police are better trained than the ones in Mumbai and we do have a faster response time by the National Guard if needed. However a hostage situation such as this cannot be handled by any negotiator because these monsters have no demands.
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    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Any incident, in NYC or any other large city in the U.S., similar to the Mumbai will obviously result in a significant number of casualties to both first responders and others. I don't believe that there is any way to get around that. The best that can be hoped for is to reduce the number of casualties as much as possible and terminate the threats as quickly as possible. To accomplish that will require many things, not the least of which will be the geographic distribution of their increased long arms to provide their utilization as quickly as possible in any area. In addition, further improvement and implementation of their realization that immediate confrontation of terrorists, will most likely result in the least amount of overall casualties. There will be no good solutions, only ones that are less bad.
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    Senior Member Array AlexHassin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGreatGonzo View Post
    I spent many years living in NYC and still love it. The best thing NYC could ever do to prevent a Mumbai style attack, or at the very least, end it quickly, would be to allow private citizens to own and carry firearms. As it is now, no matter how much NYPD trains, such an attack in Manhattan would be absolutely devastating because nobody will well armed to fight back. Some brave warriors will still fight with whatever they have at hand, but they will be at a sore disadvantage.
    Gonzo
    If there where terrorist shooting where I was and I was carrying concealed I would not engage them. it would be get out of that section of the city quick time. some might, however handgun against rifles would be odds I would not take as a civilian.

  15. #15
    Senior Member Array TheGreatGonzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexHassin View Post
    If there where terrorist shooting where I was and I was carrying concealed I would not engage them.
    And that should be your choice to make. However, as it currently stands, private citizens in NYC don't have the option to engage with firearms. It is wrong to deprive them of that option. Personally, if I were to see a Mumbai style attack beginning in my presence, I would most certainly engage them, even if it was handgun vs. rifle. At the least, I want to cause them to take cover and interrupt their wholesale slaughter. At best, I win the engagement because I'm trained and they are not. Either way, I cannot stand by and watch people being murdered and not take action. That may be based in part on the oath I took as a LEO, however, I believe I would take the same action as a private citizen.
    Gonzo
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