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Robbery: shooting in the back

3K views 48 replies 36 participants last post by  kelcarry 
#1 ·
I didn't want to hijack the other thread about shooting in the back so I thought I'd pose this question here.

What if you are at a restaurant or say gas station and as you wait in line to pay or sitting down eating and an armed robber comes in? The robber has his gun pointed at the clerk. You have a clear shot at the bg but it will be a shot in the back.

Do you take the shot?
 
#4 ·
A more complicated answer for me. It will depend on the positioning of myself, other patorns, the clerk and the BG. Not only do I need positioning, I want an instant stop to as much as possible prevent him from squeezing off shot(s) at the clerk, other patrons or myself after my action. The goal being to prevent injuries to innocents and getting my butt sued. To my mind that means a good head shot or possibly even pistol whipping him behind the ear. My perception of the threat level he presents will also figure into the equation. No action may be the best action. Specific circumstances at the time will determine my action.
 
#6 ·
Is this a trick question?
I'm in line behind a guy robbing a clerk at gun point...he doesn't see me behind him/or ignores me...I have no exit route without being seen (possibly shot for trying to leave)...bang-bang......bang!:brutal7:
OMO, but not much of a choice here.:hand22:
 
#8 ·
I said don't shoot. However, depending on the demeanor of the BG that could change. If his actions are erratic and appears he may decide to shoot, then I might take the shot. Otherwise I let it play out and do what I need to to stay safe.

As to standing in line to pay, and robber comes in and pulls a gun, how are you going to get a shot at his back?
 
#11 ·
I said don't shoot. However, depending on the demeanor of the BG that could change. If his actions are erratic and appears he may decide to shoot, then I might take the shot. Otherwise I let it play out and do what I need to to stay safe.

As to standing in line to pay, and robber comes in and pulls a gun, how are you going to get a shot at his back?
Hasn't he already shown a total disregard for others lives by point the weapon at them? Unless he tells me he is just kidding I have to assume he is a serious threat.

Michael
 
#31 ·
Yeah but that doesn't matter. In the eyes of the law a gun is loaded, even if it isn't.
There was a robbery here a year ago and the two guys forced their way into an insurance agents home office. All they had were airsoft guns. The agent shot them. He was not charged but they were charged with armed robbery, even though they were only airsoft guns.
 
#13 ·
If I can take the shot without being detected first by the BG (drawing on a drawn gun is not the best idea without surprise) AND I believe I have a good backstop for the shot if I miss or overpenetrate (I don't want to shoot a clerk, cook, or customer) then I believe the shot would be prudent and justifiable given the circumstances. Shooting in the back in "self defense" is usually bad as it becomes less clear whether the perp is choosing to leave and therefore end the imminent threat, which generally disqualifies a justified shooting (laws may vary, and location matters- inside your house the rules are often different.) Shooting a perp in the back to end an imminent threat to someone else is more clear-cut in terms of determining a good shoot vs. a bad one.
 
#14 ·
Some of you guys have to remember that if the BG has the gun pointed at the clerk and you shoot the BG in the head, the BG might pull that trigger just from the shock and shoot, maybe kill the clerk. Other efforts would be used to get the gun pointed away from the clerk (or any other friendlies) then I would handle the problem at hand.
 
#21 ·
Yell POPCORN or MONKEY to interrupt his OODA loop with a "what the...huh?" and fire when he starts to turn, ergo taking his point of aim off the clerk.

Seriously, too complex a situation to vote, or give an honest or realistic answer to.
 
#15 ·
I would use some new disarming technique I learned on the internet and subdue him.

J/K

In AZ you may use deadly force to protect yourself or others. The trick here is...can you do it without endangering anyone else? If I honestly believe Mr. Miscreant is actually going to "cause death or grave bodily harm" then I would have to take the shot. Let's face it...if he's in front of you, you have one heck of a good path to his medula which will turn off his central nervous system like a switch. Some may say that a close contact shot to the brain stem is akin to execution, but I say it is merely the most effective means at hand to stop a violent felon from comitting murder in the comission of a felony.

As a previous poster already answered...a lot depends upon angle to the subject, relative position of the clerk, presense of others in the store...etc. So, my long answer is: I would take the shot IF I knew I could make it without making things worse.
 
#16 ·
You want a cookie cutter cut and dry answer to a complicated equation.
 
#48 ·
When I started this thread my goal was to stimulate a discussion and read varying takes on the hypothetical situation. I kept it that simple and general of a scenario in order to get those varied responses.

I never intended to get an unequivocal answer to what to do in such a situation. I especially appreciate responses like those from Jang that did a great job trying to look at the scenario in many ways and giving a reasoned, thoughtful response.
 
#17 ·
Shoot!! When a bad guy points a gun at inocent people, it's not a joke, it's a threat to mine and others lives. I also would always believe that any weapon used in a crime is real/loaded/dangerous. I wouldn't draw my firearm unless I was sure that only the BG was in my line of fire. I will also yell in a loud commanding voice to "stop" or "drop the gun".
 
#18 ·
Personally, I would recommend against any commands. By doing so you have just given away the element of surprise. If you believe that you have a shot and it is justified, shoot, don't talk or command.
 
#19 ·
While shooting in the back without verbal warning is legal in this state in these circumstances, I would only do so if I had a clear backstop and truly felt that he was about to pull the trigger. Many times the gun is for intimidation and compliance. Sometimes it's for killing, no doubt. I'm not here to catch a bg or stop a robbery. If I can keep people from dying, that's different.

But once you draw, everything changes. A bystander might call attention to you before you fire. The bg may pull the trigger when you shoot him and still kill the clerk.

It's a decision that can only be made by my overall 'feel' for the situation.
 
#22 ·
I'd definitely check my six, to make sure that the BG doesn't have a buddy backing him up...then, if I thought he was going to shoot the clerk, I'd probably draw and shoot...
 
#23 ·
It doesn't matter if the gun is fake or unloaded. If a reasonable person would believe that the gun poses a lethal threat, then they are justified in using lethal force to protect themselves or others. In Texas at least. This was actually one of the examples in my CHL class, and we were told it was justifiable to shoot, given the correct position with nothing beyond the target. If the guy has a giant yellow and orange supersoaker, different story. :twak: If I felt the robber was actually going to shoot, I'd fire, but until that point I'd rather he just take the $12 in the register and save me lawyer fees.
 
#24 ·
I agree with Sflav.

The gun could after the fact be found to be an Airsoft or CO2 powered BB gun...If it's wielded as in a threatening manner by a person acting in a threatening manner making threats then well open and shut.
Exclusions being the gun is _clearly_ a toy in build/construction from the distance as seen by the person thinking to make contact (i.e. Nerf guns)...But then as such there is no question and thus no hypothetical scenario.

Also I very much agree with retsupt99.

How many times through the years have we seen video of liquor store, ATM, bank, grocery store, gas station, convenience mart and pharmacy stores in specific here the robber runs in himself FOCUSED on the cashier leaving people around him in the immediate including on his six to do what they will...Which is most often to stand there frozen, take real time cell phone pics (!),or to on rare occasion attempt to intervene by hitting the guy with found objects at hand (Recall summer 2010 the man that tried to clock a guy in the head with a wine bottle only to have no net effect and himself stand there looking stunned like huh this works in the movies!).
How many times in those threads have people said; SHOOT HIM...As in the back or back of the head.

Personally Ii have no problem at all with shooting, stabbing or punching a person in the back.
I long ago lost that sense of street fight 'fairness' the hard way, upon being jumped at a buss stop and fighting my through it with two friends (5 on 3) so as to _survive_...Only to succeed in fighting them back and beating one to the ground, but I made a fatal mistake I'd been told not to ever do and turned my back to him. That ba***** had no issue in retaliating by pulling a #2 pencil and stabbing me in the lower back with it on the sneak. A life lesson learned, the hard and painful way.

If some threat is attacking me and is stupid enough to turn his back to me; I'd think to take advantage of this tactical error.
If he or she is being a threat to another by way of _lethal force_ AND is within J.A.M./A.O.I. (this is key!) then to my mind within allowance of state laws, there is no question.
I would not though act to save or stop taking of property, including but not exclusive to printed paper or pressed/shaped metals...Because I personally believe that all human life, even that of a crook, are more valuable than that of an Ipod or XBox.

IMHO the better question, as touched on by another here, is not so much whether to shoot or not but rather where to shoot as when 'center of mass' is a persons back and or back of the skull.
I have never once seen any trainer, aside from myself with my own students, discuss or feature this among their training....And yet it is a very real possibility for police and civilians alike.


Image source - http://www.human-body-facts.com/human-body-muscle-diagram.html


Image source - http://www.kappamedical.com/wall.htm#The_Human_Skeleton_


Image source - http://www.genetherapyreview.com/gene-therapy-education/29-human-body.html

In my world a 'threat' has a three dimensional body with a 360 degree view; Front, back, sides, top (head and shoulders) and bottom (feet and groin).
We are made of muscle, bone and organs covered in a one piece organ sheath of very easy to damage skin.

To defend against a threat that defense is not exclusively dependent on directionality of the threat nor positional view of the threatened.
See the recent FL school board shooting for an absolutely perfect example of how this real world does occur.

People who get burned for shooting folk in the back, and front too!, are those who shoot _past_ threats who in the immediate of a trigger pull were no longer an active imminent threat to past tense threatened/aggrieved persons.
For a notable and recent example of this see the pharmacist Jerome Ersland unlawful and immoral shooting of in the immediate unconscious and thus neutralized no longer a threat Atwone Parker.

Folks need to know and understand that this is not simple math of 1+1=2.
But rather geometry.

If pressed to shoot; I would shoot an _imminent threat_, anywhere that might be functional to cause the threat to STOP...Regardless of his direction of presentation to my view.

- Janq

"A branch of mathematics that deals with the measurement, properties, and relationships of points, lines, angles, surfaces, and solids; broadly. : The study of properties of given elements that remain invariant under specified transformations." - http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/geometry
 
#32 ·
The gun could after the fact be found to be an Airsoft or CO2 powered BB gun...If it's wielded as in a threatening manner by a person acting in a threatening manner making threats then well open and shut.
Exclusions being the gun is _clearly_ a toy in build/construction from the distance as seen by the person thinking to make contact (i.e. Nerf guns)...But then as such there is no question and thus no hypothetical scenario.
Just a response to this comment; there are some "toy" guns out there which even many of us could easily mistake for real ones under duress. See below:

http://www.rap4.com/store/paintball/ram-p99-paintball-pistol-black
http://www.rap4.com/store/paintball/rap226-paintball-pistol-internal-air
http://www.rap4.com/store/paintball/ram-desert-eagle-paintball-pistol-internal-version
 
#25 ·
I voted shoot based on the assumption that I feel he's definitely a threat to that clerks life and my shot is clear.
 
#28 ·
Pretty vague scenario. I choose not to shoot. Yet...

Chances of the clerk not complying are slim. Chances of robber committing murder for a till's worth of cash are slim. Threat to my life at this point is slim. Chances of a threat to my life and several others dramatically increase if I draw. Chances of a variety of unsavory legal repercussions of shooting a man in the back are substantial.

I'm sorry that the clerk seems unable to defend himself but I am not his sworn defender.
 
#29 ·
Depending on the totality of circumstances and events, I'd lean towards taking the shot...if the BG suddenly decides to leave, then no...
 
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