Finger On The Trigger - Mistake Or Tactical Advantage?

This is a discussion on Finger On The Trigger - Mistake Or Tactical Advantage? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Well, it's after 0300 hrs in the morning, and I have had my duty belt out and RED gun trying to figure out just what ...

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Thread: Finger On The Trigger - Mistake Or Tactical Advantage?

  1. #31
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Well, it's after 0300 hrs in the morning, and I have had my duty belt out and RED gun trying to figure out just what I do. I have discovered that an old habit has followed me from my revolver duty days. When I draw, as I aquire the target, my trigger finger touches the trigger, but rides the edge of the trigger everytime.
    I think this comes from the open trigger designs of my old revolver duty holsters. Somehow, I mimic this same thing drawing my glock from the Raptor level 3 retention or anyother holster. My finger automatically verifys the trigger! I have probably done this all this time and not even been aware of it.

    Thanks for a great post.

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  3. #32
    VIP Member Array shockwave's Avatar
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    It is a phenomenon which you can not over come, prevent or guard against. It is part of the brain's hard wiring and how nerve impulses travels though your nervous system.
    Not to be contradictory or anything, but you're simply mistaken. Mas's "transference of energy" theory is incorrect, albeit all sciency-sounding.

    In fact, I prove it wrong myself several times a week, along with millions of others who practice chi kung exercises. One move in the sequence called ba duan jin requires holding out a fist and then tensing the entire body, while squeezing the hand and grinding it hard to the side, compressing all your muscles except for the arm not making a fist, which hangs slack to the side.

    There is no "transference of energy," and this exercise wouldn't work properly if there were such a thing. However, people do get excited during conflict and they make mistakes and get confused - like that officer in Oakland who shot the kid on the platform instead of using his Taser.
    "It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."

  4. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by shockwave View Post
    Not to be contradictory or anything, but you're simply mistaken. Mas's "transference of energy" theory is incorrect, albeit all sciency-sounding.

    In fact, I prove it wrong myself several times a week, along with millions of others who practice chi kung exercises. One move in the sequence called ba duan jin requires holding out a fist and then tensing the entire body, while squeezing the hand and grinding it hard to the side, compressing all your muscles except for the arm not making a fist, which hangs slack to the side.

    There is no "transference of energy," and this exercise wouldn't work properly if there were such a thing. However, people do get excited during conflict and they make mistakes and get confused - like that officer in Oakland who shot the kid on the platform instead of using his Taser.
    Okay there cowboy. If you say so. But I'll stick with neurosurgeons and medical science over Sensei if you don't mind.

    BTW... it wasn't a theory proposed by Ayoob, he just wrote an article based on the science behind it.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  5. #34
    Distinguished Member Array kelcarry's Avatar
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    Read some of the replies. Some are quite "technical" where the assumption is that they are extremely well prepared to use their firearm. I fall into a different category like, I am sure, many repliers, who may talk a talk but, in reality, cannot walk a very well-prepared walk. Bottom line as Dirty Harry has said--"man must know his limitations". I am not an expert but I believe I can protect myself and am willing to do so--I would never put my finger on the trigger unless I intend to shoot--period/end of story. Too many instances that I have seen or read about or watched videos on that show unintended discharges due to negligence and lack of focus--including finger on trigger during something other than actually shooting.

  6. #35
    VIP Member Array goldshellback's Avatar
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    On two occasions I have drawn my sidearm, had it at the 'low-ready', and was prepared, and expecting, to shoot at the threat. Neither time did I have my finger on the trigger (once with a S.A. 1911 and the other a Sig P229). Having said that I was completly prepared to shoot.....and kill. The drawing and presentation of my weapon was enough to 'adjust' the offending 'attitudes' at the time. Both times I was able to maintain distance and keep at the 'ready'.

    Both instences I was able to learn an awful lot about myself and just how much I 'resorted' to my training in order to 'handle business'.

    I fully believe and know my finger will be on the trigger of my sidearm when time to take care of business arises again.....if ever.
    "Just getting a concealed carry permit means you haven't commited a crime yet. CCP holders commit crimes." Daniel Vice, senior attorney for the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, quoted on Fox & Friends, 8 Jul, 2008

    (Sometimes) "a fight avioded is a fight won." ... claude clay

  7. #36
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Glockman,

    I wonder how many people actually train toward holstering and unholstering, and practice at it.

    Some time ago Scott Warren gave me a tip that every time he holsters or uholsters his gun regardless of the reason be it sport, end of the day carry or work...He always performs a full speed draw stroke (10/10ths) as though he were about to engage a target/threat, and brings it to a compressed high ready.
    The conversation came up as related to him seeing me perform a draw stroke at his request to make use of my sidearm toward demonstrating a wholly other subject item (classroom conditions with no magazines and all guns confirmed to be clear).

    That was years ago and I now to last night do this always every time whether I be at a line or in my office unholstering.
    With this comes reinforcement toward proper draw method and at that trigger finger control.

    One thing that is the 800 lb. gorilla in the room as specifically related to LEOs (excluding civilians and military) is that very much widely it is well known among themself and their training community that they do not train but minimally never mind practice what is learned in training, as specifically related to use of firearms.
    Lack of time, lack of interest, 'I'm not a gun person', lack of range access, lack of agency provided ammo (one of my local major agencys provides one box of ammo a month, maximum!), lack of push to do any of the above....And lack of ability to receive reimbursement toward training programs offered by personnel not within the agencys own systems (third party contractors).

    Add these factors to Suarez at what effectively is taking a position of felt convenience to band-aid what is a training & lack of practice problem then you wind up with what becomes a by view normative action excusing what is really the inexcusable.
    And it's all good and gravy; Until someone gets shot that wasn't supposed to OR the LEO shoots himself in the thigh or foot during an exercise. : |

    Training as practiced.



    Shooting Guide

    This PDF chart was designed to convey gun safety basics to new shooters in a concise, accessible, and arresting manner. Most gun safety posters look like they were designed with a photocopier in the 1970s. I like the tilt, and there's something comforting about the gun angled (relatively safely) down in a "low ready" position. Maybe it's just me.

    (image updated 6/7/2010)

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    - Janq

    P.S.
    Another action that I have trained and put to mandatory 100% practice is the deactivation of the frame safety.
    I exclusively carry and run 1911s, even my trainer .22 is a 1911 top end conversion. Have been running 1911s only for the past decade now, with a Sig P226 being my prior.
    When ever I draw as part of my draw stroke ALWAYS the frame safety is clicked to OFF. The safety on a handgun is there for safe carry/transport, not toward use post draw. Another item that gets real people hamstrung real world for lack of practical application training and practice.
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  8. #37
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Well I tried the test I mentioned yesterday, purely for my own edification, using new primers in expended cases and a Western Speed Timer.

    I ran three series of tests on my pratice (stock) Beretta 92FS, two were in single action mode and one was in double action mode. They were, finger on trigger-SA, finger indexed on frame SA, finger on trigger DA. I ran five iterations of each series, the results are as follows.

    SA-On Trigger SA-On Frame DA-On Trigger
    1. .27 .23 .32
    2. .28 .28 .27
    3. .28 .24 .32
    4. .25 .26 .27
    5. .26 .27 .29
    Avr .268 .256 .294

    While the numbers may seem large (slow) they include reaction time, trigger press time and lock time. With respect to reaction time, the generally accepted average reaction time is .20 - .25. From what I have seen typical average reaction times for those of my age for similar hand actions are in excess of 0.50. Also I am unaware of the lock time of an unmodified Beretta 92FS.

    Conclusion: For me there is no advantage to indexing my finger on the trigger of the subject pistol in single action mode, in fact there appears to be a slight disadvantage. Whether this result is due to a particular idiosyncrasy on my part I do not know. I will admit that I was surprised by this result and I am unsure as to the reason why they turned out as they did. Whether others would/will have the same result I do not know. In addition, as I suspected, relative to the particular pistol and individual involved, a frame indexed finger on the pistol in SA mode provides a time advantage over a trigger indexed finger in DA mode.

    This test was relatively unscientific and the results of other individuals with the same or other pistols might vary considerably and I would welcome their results.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  9. #38
    Ex Member Array Georgia1911's Avatar
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    I have only had 1 situation where i drew,and that was more than scary enough.It was this summer,i was taking a walk,sun just starting to go down.So peaceful,then 3 guys and a girl,all about my age (20s).One of the guys had a machete on his belt.They yelled at me,trying to start a fight,walking fast toward me.I drew both my guns in record time,disengaged the safety and put my fingers against the front of each trigger guard.They turned right around and walked off.After i calmed down,i felt confident i would not have had an accidental discharge.

  10. #39
    Member Array coolfrmn's Avatar
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    Finger OFF the trigger & along side the frame/slide. EVERY tactical class I've taken has stated "When you need your finger, it will be there". My instructors all where former military, LE & current security proffesionals with shooting experience.

  11. #40
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    I for one am glad for this thread. For years I have been doing the same thing. Not really knowing or understanding exactly what I was doing, heck, I never even thought about it until this thread. I knew I touched the trigger, but never realized I was touching the side of the trigger, and not covering it. I am a "power pad" shooter, using the whole tip of my finger, and when I first responded to the post, I thought I was covering the trigger. I had never broken down my process while examining each step I took with regard to finger placement.

    I am sorry if I am going on about this , but I have learned something new about my draw stroke and trigger aquisition.


    Jang, I can totally relate to what you are conveying about lackidasical practice of the draw from the duty holster. I am much amused during our qualification days, which are 3-4 times a year, and watch those who never practice with level 3 holsters burn time during timed fire. They take too much time with the draw and then have to spray rounds downrange to keep from losing points to a saved round/s. The whole qualification time is a total nightmare to those who are marginal shooters and do not practice. I will get on a soap box about what I think of lawman who do not shoot well or take it serious, so Ill stop there.

  12. #41
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Gman,
    I agree completely with your and Jang's thoughts on draw practice for everyone and cops in particular. I have never understood their logic. In addition to shooting practice, I spent untold hours in front of a mirror working on my draw. I won't quote times, but many people tried to beat me and none ever did. Now I am relegated to "old and slow", C'est la vie.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  13. #42
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    Gman,
    I agree completely with your and Jang's thoughts on draw practice for everyone and cops in particular. I have never understood their logic. In addition to shooting practice, I spent untold hours in front of a mirror working on my draw. I won't quote times, but many people tried to beat me and none ever did. Now I am relegated to "old and slow", C'est la vie.
    Si. But slow is fast too, eh? Hope we all live to be slow and old.

  14. #43
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    Exclamation Word of Caution to Novice Shooters!

    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    Glockman,

    I wonder how many people actually train toward holstering and unholstering, and practice at it.

    Some time ago Scott Warren gave me a tip that every time he holsters or uholsters his gun regardless of the reason be it sport, end of the day carry or work...He always performs a full speed draw stroke (10/10ths) as though he were about to engage a target/threat, and brings it to a compressed high ready.

    ...That was years ago and I now to last night do this always every time whether I be at a line or in my office unholstering.
    With this comes reinforcement toward proper draw method and at that trigger finger control.


    - Janq

    P.S.
    Another action that I have trained and put to mandatory 100% practice is the deactivation of the frame safety.
    I exclusively carry and run 1911s, even my trainer .22 is a 1911 top end conversion. Have been running 1911s only for the past decade now, with a Sig P226 being my prior.
    When ever I draw as part of my draw stroke ALWAYS the frame safety is clicked to OFF. The safety on a handgun is there for safe carry/transport, not toward use post draw. Another item that gets real people hamstrung real world for lack of practical application training and practice.
    I do not think this can be overstated, and a word of caution!

    Just the sheer numbers of members here who are novices I feel it is incumbent to point out and state the obvious!

    Many members here, especially several posting in this thread are considered expert gun handlers! They are no where near novice stature and have attended several advance level shooting programs.

    It is my opinion anyone who has not reached the level of what is considered to be an expert gun handler, and have not attended advanced level pistol courses should be attempting to practice full speed draw strokes with live ammunition outside of a gun range and under the watchful eye of a rangemaster!

    I know I am stating the obvious, however many of us are more than familiar with each other here, and believe people speak the truth regarding what their qualifications are.

    However, there are new members who join this forum everyday. People from all walks of life and all skill levels, and we all would be remiss, if we did not point out the proper safe gun handling practices no matter how obvious it may be.

    This is an excellent thread, with lots of critical information being discussed, and a lot of points to learn. The last thing any of us want is for one of our forum members to injure or kill someone, or kill that brand new 46" flat screen they just got for Christmas in the name of trying to improve their draw.

    I merely point out Janq's post as an example of what other professionals can do, and do safely. In no way am I inferring Janq is unsafe. However, a novice may not understand the intricacies of what is taking place and therefore, not even imagine what can happen when they do not possess the level of knowledge to know the difference.

    Okay, enough said! Carry On!
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  15. #44
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Good obs, Bark'n.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  16. #45
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    Good obs, Bark'n.
    Agreed.

    Further I myself should have thought to make an addendum to say exact same.
    This is NOT an item for NOVICE shooters nor is it an item to be performed anywhere but at a designated & confirmed SAFE area.

    Among our workplaces/residences Scott and I both have such a place, which is not a given for everyone.
    Always use your BEST judgment and think to default to prudence. This should be _everyones_ standard operating procedure and best practices.

    Good point as usual Bark'n...Thanks for the assistive correction!

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

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