Finger On The Trigger - Mistake Or Tactical Advantage? - Page 4

Finger On The Trigger - Mistake Or Tactical Advantage?

This is a discussion on Finger On The Trigger - Mistake Or Tactical Advantage? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; No correction or chastising, buddy... Just an additional opportunity to interject a safety bulletin! Your post was totally appropriate for the subject matter....

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  1. #46
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    Array Bark'n's Avatar
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    No correction or chastising, buddy... Just an additional opportunity to interject a safety bulletin! Your post was totally appropriate for the subject matter.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."


  2. #47
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Jang,
    Empty out some space in you PM box.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  3. #48
    Senior Member Array ks kid's Avatar
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    Thank you to all who have added to this. It has been a very good read. I am not a LEO, but have miltitary training and spend at a minimum 16 hours a year with a profesional trainer and many additional hours at the range. I have always trained with finger indexed and often wondered if that was the correct thing to do. After reading this post, I am sure I am doing the right thing based on the responses. Thank you for the detail and thought that was put forth.

  4. #49
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Guantes,

    Thanks for the tip..I didn't realize it was jammed up (!).
    I've cleared some space...And responded to a handful of months old messages too. : \

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  5. #50
    VIP Member Array shockwave's Avatar
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    It is my opinion anyone who has not reached the level of what is considered to be an expert gun handler, and have not attended advanced level pistol courses should be attempting to practice full speed draw strokes with live ammunition...
    Right. Practicing at home, do so with a safe gun.

    For live fire practice, IPSC isn't the worst you can do. You dress in regular clothing and carry concealed. On "go," you sweep, draw and fire. If I've learned anything from that, it's that you don't have to be Quickdraw McGraw. You just have to be smooth and deliberate and be sharp on your aim.

    You're right, Bark'n: Good skills are developed over time.
    "It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."

  6. #51
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Guantes,

    Interesting results you got there...Especially considering the differential between SA-On Frame and DA-On trigger.
    I'd have expected that kind of time gap, but to the opposite with on trigger being slightly faster rather than slightly slower. Interesting!

    ~~~

    Public Notice:

    BTW to those reading I want to further clarify my post at #36...

    This action of unholstering I'd described _IS NOT_ as a specific manner of practice for the singular sake of practicing the draw.
    Let me be crystal clear that is all kinds of NOT what is being performed.

    What is being performed is taking advantage of the need to unholster; Such as when putting the gun away for storage when at home or when standing on a line at a gun game event where the SO directs you to unholster and load as to prepare the gun to be used in the immediate.
    At that moment as brain to body conditioning the draw is then done as same for purpose of practiced training.

    I am not at all though saying that nor anyone should stand in their livingroom/bedroom/Anywhere and practice strings of loaded gun condition 1 or 0 holster draws as a repetition item.
    That my friends would be stupid; And is asking for trouble.

    I personally do though run repetition type holster drills in my homes, but that is using either a confirmed empty gun (no magazine no ammo) or a gun & magazine loaded with confirmed SnapCap dummy ammunition. Live magazines and ammo not within my immediate.

    Just thought I'd say this so that no folk would run with inference and be all OMG I can't believe it!...Or think hey that's how ya train, live gun holster draw repetition!
    Further folk should not at all attempt a live gun draw at any speed other than snail slow unless and until they have IMHO invested many hours of practiced training toward doing same (like hundreds), and even then be mindful as rather than allowing your brain to go to automatic (!).

    Be careful. Please.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  7. #52
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Jang,
    I was not surprised by the results of the SA-On Frame and DA-On Trigger, in fact expected same and noted such in post #12.
    I was surprised by the SA-On Trigger and SA-On Frame as I expected the opposite. In my own defense I tried to be as unbiased as possible in action as I was interested in the actual results.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  8. #53
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    I don't plan to pull it out unless I plan to shoot it. However, having said that.... my habit is ... finger is intitally on the frame and off trigger but as I raise the gun the finger goes to trigger, unless something alerts me in that 1/2 second that I may only need to be prepared to shoot... and finger at that point stays off trigger until I"m ready to pull the trigger.

    So, I guess my answer is : both.
    I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts. --- Will Rogers ---
    Chief Justice John Roberts : "I don't see how you can read Heller and not take away from it the notion that the Second Amendment...was extremely important to the framers in their view of what liberty meant."

  9. #54
    Member Array black knife's Avatar
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    I have never placed my finger on the trigger even when drawing down on armed suspects.....never have and never will. I have seen too many cops accidently fire their gun by doing so.....one even got fired. If you are that slow where you can't place your finger on the trigger and fire your gun at the threat then you are either handicapped or too old...either way don't carry a gun you might shoot your self or someone else.
    "You fight the way you Train"

  10. #55
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    I am pleased with how this thread is maturing. I have enjoyed very much the thought and expertise that has gone into many of the posts here. That's why this is my favorite gun forum, I haven't found this level of discussion anywhere else.

    As to the topic:

    My department had a -group range day- yesterday. I was thinking about this thread and spoke with the firearms trainer about this topic, he agreed that this would be a good training moment to test this. Our results were similar to Guantes posted results, however in general, slower.
    Most officers in my department carry Glock 22 or 23, two (Chief and Lieutenant) carry 1911s and I carry my Sig P220. The times of those who admitted to spending less than the recommended amount of range time was significantly slower than those who enjoy the practice, and do it often. Obviously those shooting SAO guns were tested with only indexed and finger-on-trigger times, both were slightly faster with fingers indexed along the frame. They were both very surprised by the timed results, and rant he tests 10 times indexed and 10 times on trigger. Neither were timed to be faster with finger-on-trigger even once.
    Those tested firing "Safe Action" triggers were also surprised by the outcome, and in general had similar times to each other. All still timed slightly faster with finger indexed.
    I tested with finger indexed both DA and SA, and on trigger DA and SA. My fastest timed test was consistently with indexed finger fired DA. I am kind of surprised by this but, it makes sense in a way too...I practice this way, 95% of shot I fire at the range come finger indexed, DA. I am most comfortable shooting this way.
    My finger indexed times always beat my finger on-trigger times both SA and DA.

    As to the full speed, full draw every time out of the holster. I agree that it needs to be done safely, and needs to be done. I was trained that any time you need to draw (for any reason) it should be done full speed. Your body (and mind) get trained by everything you do, even when you don't think about training. If you do meandering draws when coming out of the holster to put your gun away at night, or whenever you un-holster, that trains your body and mind. That is probably the draw that happens most often for the average gun carrier. If you're doing it just to get out of the holster, and not a thoughtful, consistent, "by the numbers" draw, you are training yourself whether you think about it or not.
    I have found that for timed shots, the place you can make up the most time is in the draw. I personally practice my draw every time I put my gun on. I do 10 #1's and 20 complete draws. When I'm headed to work, I do another 10 #1's and 20 complete draws. I always think about each step in the draw, and do them slowly and smoothly, because slow is smooth, and smooth is fast.

    Again, thanks to those who have posted in this thread and made it educational interesting and enjoyable to read.
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
    Thomas Jefferson

  11. #56
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    The eye opener is when you practice the draw extensively, and then boggle that one time on the range. If it can happen after hours of training, think what could happen to lesser skilled officers in that...moment.

  12. #57
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    As stated elsewhere I was a cop in the 70’s and I pulled and pointed at suspects more times than I can remember. One night my partner and I responded to shots fired at a campsite. As we arrived on the scene I observed a group of people gathered around a campfire and suddenly noticed a guy with a handgun held downward below his waist. He turned to my direction and I drew down on him so fast that I never remembered the action. Now, there were many similar instances where I drew in preparation to fire but this one was close – very close.

    Once my brain caught up with my autonomic physical response I noticed my right index finger was welded to the base of my revolver cylinder. So for me personally, I reacted exactly how I was trained. My partner on the other hand, was a loose cannon. He often cocked the hammer of his 41-magnum with his finger in the trigger well. Then again, he was a little crazy but he was the senior officer.

    If I were to play psychologist I would say that training and discipline is one thing, and perception of fear is quite another. We don’t always know how we’ll actually react in a life n’ death situation until it happens. As we sit at our computers in housecoats armed with coffee or tea, we can easily weigh in on how we would respond to many ‘what if’ scenarios that we all read.

    Regards,
    Dan
    “Monsters are real and so are ghosts. They live inside of us, and sometimes they win.”
    ~ Stephen King

  13. #58
    Ex Member Array hamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter View Post
    Finger On The Trigger - Mistake Or Tactical Advantage?

    So let me ask you guys...have any of you pointed a gun at a bad guy...or suspected bad guy...or anyone you remotely thought you might really have to shoot with your finger OFF the trigger? I am not talking about "searching for the contact", nor "mid-fight movement", but rather the static times when you have challenged someone whom you thought you might have to shoot...but you didn't quite have enough information to press the trigger yet. Where was your finger?

    I am well aware of all so-called safety rules, but being anal retentive about this sort of thing only hurts your survivability n the real world for which we train.

    Lets set the dogma aside and actually think about this.

    Certainly there is a place for "finger off trigger", but holding an adversary at gunpoint while he decides how to respond to your challenge and determines whether you will shoot him or not may not be it.

    I am not the first to say this. In a 2000 write up in the now gone IWBA magazine, Dr. Martin Fackler wrote about the folly of teaching finger-always-off methodology. As expected, the dino-cops of the era ate him alive and the matter was dropped.

    Even earlier, gunmen of the pre-modern technique world did not suffer from fear of their triggers as is evidenced by the photos and data from that age. Look at the lead photo. It is of a young Rex Applegate in his "ready position". Notice the finger. Did we all suddenly become a nation of jittery butterfingers in 1976? Are we lesser men today than the Jordans, Askins, and Applegates of a bygone era? No..I don't think so. But I think a great deal of gunfight knowledge has been suppressed by the politically correct, guru worshippers, and liability ninnyhammers of the gun world today.

    Well...you all know how much I care about getting the approval of others in the community - so here we go.

    Read The Remainder Of The Article Here:http://www.warriortalknews.com/2010/...antage.html#tp
    You are risking a negligent death in such a situation. You OK with a negligent death ? Ok with killing an innocent person? - then go ahead and give yourself permission to do what you like.

  14. #59
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sigmanluke
    I have found that for timed shots, the place you can make up the most time is in the draw....I personally practice my draw every time I put my gun on.
    DITTO!!! ^^

    Roughly two, maybe three, years ago at an IDPA club match (for non IDPA shooters this is a minor event where nothing real is on the line but maybe your own ego as against yourself) I was shooting in a squad along with Tom Yost. I know Tom directly.
    So at a random stage I walk up and the SO gives the standard commands leading up to 'Shooter Ready'. I acknowledge and moments later the buzzer goes off.
    Now I don't shoot IDPA for sport nor to be competitive. My view to start is and has always been _for me_ it is simply trigger time with opportunity to do so under some degree of simulated nervousness stress.
    So I draw, fire, move through the stage and I'm done. I re-holster and return to my range kit to reload my magazines. The event was a 'qualifier'...And as per my norm rather than run through it with no cover per rules allowance I choose to _always_ run with cover, and I do not own a shooters jacket but rather my cover is whatever I wore that day on the street while my gun used and rig worn is literally whatever I walked in off the street wearing. These are my own rules for me.
    So as I'm re-loading mags over walks Tom and another shooter I don't know/recognize and Tom comments to me that I am as quick out of my holster from concealment to first shot fired as he is for same with no concealment (!). The secondary guy speaks up in agreeance and asks how do I do that? Note, Tom is a 'Master' class rating shooter with Team S&W and I've shot multiple squads along with him...He is a very good shooter. Talk about precision.
    So I reply to them both that my speed from concealment out of the holster comes from practice. I literally practice that same maneuver weekly at home using dry fire/snap caps AND every day when I holster up I do several draws from what ever clothing I'm wearing to verify draw function (!) as well as develop a baseline for anticipated malfs/errors and to that overall efficiency & speed. This is important stuff to know and _test_ because to my vie my sidearm as on the streets, outside of a safe range area, being my personal defense weapon is the equivalent to my mind of a parachute...As worn under a shirt or jacket. I went on to say that managing the draw as well as possible then does buy me time (!) to more precisely setup my first shot if and when necessary OR to center and calm myself as I'm in transition to either move or do some other game stage related mandated action (i.e. pickup a toolbox, open a door, etc.). They agreed.

    In my own real world although I am not a police nor military personnel and never have been; I am though a professional carrier of guns and other tools....And have been for decades now.
    My job and task; Executive protection. My clients are four very important people of the highest contract value being; Me (aka 'Da-Da'), my wife (aka 'momma!'), my 8 yr. old daughter (aka 'Little Person Person') and my end of the family name & gene pool 4 yr. old son (aka 'Little Big Guy').
    Like most everything else for me I take my job and task very seriously. Unfortunately I'm a lone worker with no support, no backup, no dependable cavalry and 1/4th of my protection group is antagonistic (anti-gun/anti-violence...'I never heard of anyone needing to carry a gun EVERYWHERE!') wife. I get no vacations either.
    As such I'll take every break I can get and to my mind training is low cost (formal for pay) relative to overall mission costs, while practice that is essentially free. Both being absolutely necessary as in order to feel comfortable with the task muchless to hope to be successful should the unlikely (!) AND untoward occur.

    So to my view items such as practicing the draw and mastering it to such a degree to be both fast AND combat accurate if not fine shot alignment precise, that is a gift that keeps on giving.
    If I were contacted by a threat and say he or they got the drop on me (!), which is very likely and quite common, I don't ant to be standing there thinking and debating how fast is my draw actual? Can I beat him/them to the draw. What about shot placement, after the draw!?
    All I want to have on my mind is to scan for my fleeting window of opportunity to 'drawandfire'. That quickly, as a fluid and continuous action. Fast, and accurate...If not right handed shot to the threats left eye socket opening precise.

    If I were a LEO, I would _never_ leave my home nor step foot into a cruiser without having first drawn my firearm from whatever rig I'm wearing out to effectively set my brain to feel for and do what it should expect.


    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    The eye opener is when you practice the draw extensively, and then boggle that one time on the range. If it can happen after hours of training, think what could happen to lesser skilled officers in that...moment.
    Very much agreed as well Glockman.
    One in maybe a hundred or so draws I'll boggle the grip (most common) and be off by just a hair. Immediately in hand I notice this.
    I choose to not stop and 'do it over'. Instead I run with it and continue. Which means if I'm on a range with live fire you shoot the gun like that and adapt yourself to overcome the situation until time & opportunity allows a reset of the grip. This way even with a less than absolutely perfect and thus familiar grip, I can and o remain functional...As rather than OMG stop let me do this over to fix it panicked. The boggled grip becomes by training part of my 'normal' programming if you will as an 'IF...Then' sub-routine. No longer unfamiliar and by that 'scary' or panic inducing. It gets trained down if not out.

    I too wonder same toward not just LEOs but civilian people like me.
    Recent example I was watching Shooting USA this past weekend via my TiVO box. It was an older episode I think it aired first week of Dec.
    Anyway at the tail end of the show they featured a visit to an Army shooting school & range with a long line of shooters running pistol. Two brass were standing on camera talking about how excellent their training was etc.
    But... : ( ...As actually demonstrated on camera no two people in a line had same grip. I even saw one person shooting an M9/Beretta 92FS using a slightly modified 'tea & plate' type grip. I was like huh!?, are they serious. Others were shown shooting one shot followed by the typical to new shooters reset of th grip. Shoot again one shot and repeat with grip reset.
    Some shooters were shooting Weaver, others modified Weaver, one or two Modified Isosceles . They were all over the place.
    Then the camera made a sweep shot of their targets. Distance was unstated but it looked to be maybe 25' or so. It was TV so tough to tell but it definitely was not far off distance shooting.
    The lines groups looked birdshot patterns from a smoothbore rather than what I'd expect. Many shots very low to the groin and below.
    No disrespect at all to the Army nor or warfighters; But the two guys of primary focus on camera were going on saying how these guys were the best we had and are excellent shooters.
    I sat there on my couch watching with my son thinking oh geez, this looks like an average day at an average public range among average shooters who on average show up to hear their gun make noise as rather than to specifically train at some thing to develop or enhance practiced skill. IMHO they should not have shown that piece at all, at least not under the guise as it was reported.

    Eye opening just as you note.
    When I work with my own students be they gun as a tool focused toward hunting, combat/defense or simply new shooter skill development....I always state in so many words and show them directly how and what good training and proper practice can do for them IF they them self choose to adopt the mindset AND invest the requisite time & dimes.

    Clearly on this subject now tested by two persons here including Sigmanluke's live fire; The theory proposed by Suarez is false....Without merit.
    IMHO he being an instructor of high note (nobody knows me but my students and fellow instructors locally) and very widely read and regard as being an 'expert' on the subject matter...I think it is poor of him to propose this theory without having _science_ tested it first.
    Yeah he's reporting what he saw in some FoF events but the variables there are wide above and beyond that of the trigger finger placement alone.
    Unfortunately people will read his blog entry and take that as being gospel without question and second hey does that make sense thought (!).
    With potential to down the road on the road wind up boggling their grip and at that make an error/malf that cannot be done over.

    Does this make Suarez a bad guy or a poor instructor, definitely not (!).
    Nothing changes there. Just this specific instance of reflection and advisory is not agreeable.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  15. #60
    Senior Member Array BkCo1's Avatar
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    Jang, what you are doing when you unholster and reholster is building up muscle memory. I don't think that was stated clearly for the new people here. Always start slow and get the proceedure down pat then work up to speed. As you stated do it it safely. I also practice drawing and reholstering when ever I get a chance but under safe conditions. NEVER AROUND ANYONE.
    I don't index my trigger finger. If it is not on the trigger it is in the trigger guard pressed against the front of the guard. I will probably get flak for that but it is what I was taught years ago.
    You do have good ideas and present them well.
    Semper Fi

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