Finger On The Trigger - Mistake Or Tactical Advantage?

This is a discussion on Finger On The Trigger - Mistake Or Tactical Advantage? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Jang, once while qualifying, my front site came off the weapon. Like you stated about the draw bobble, I chose to run with it and ...

Page 5 of 8 FirstFirst 12345678 LastLast
Results 61 to 75 of 113

Thread: Finger On The Trigger - Mistake Or Tactical Advantage?

  1. #61
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    8,899
    Jang, once while qualifying, my front site came off the weapon. Like you stated about the draw bobble, I chose to run with it and pretend it was real. I completed the next 3 stages of fire and ended up with an 87 percent, which was passing. It is the little things like this that we can use to add some spice to a sterile routine during training.
    Things happen. It can happen at the worst moment of your life, even when fighting for your life.
    In the Corps we used to say to sweat more in peace, is to bleed less in war.

    In the end, it's those "little things" you have to overcome. So embrace them, improvise , adapt, and overcome.

  2. Remove Ads

  3. #62
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    5,272
    Jang,

    Excellent post, with many pertinent and valuable points to ponder.

    Something specific came to mind while reading the part of your post addressing the acquisition or lack of a proper grip during an at speed draw with semi auto pistols, dealing with it and the problems with it in the television show you viewed.

    Using a circuclar, scoop type draw rather than a MT elevator type draw, I became aware of this problem during the draw with semi auto pistols some time ago. Like yourself I carried on and either adjusted the grip during the draw or at the earliest available time.

    I have come to the realization of the value of grooved grips on the semi auto pistol in assisting in the assumption of a proper grip during the draw, specifically the type draw I use. Prior to the adaption of grooved grips (Hogue) on my Berettas, I noticed the periodic problem of a less than desirable grip when drawing. A switch to grooved grips, with the consistent hand placement they engender, virtually eliminated the problem. I am aware that there are many that do not like grooved grips, but for those who use a scoop type draw, at their modest cost, some experimentation with grooved grips might prove worthwhile.

    Strangely, I virtually never encountered that problem with revolvers, possibly due to the different profile and grip characteristics of the revolver.

    Just something I thought I would pass along.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  4. #63
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    6,781
    + 1 Glockman ^^

    Do not fear failure; Embrace it's potential and aspire to learn from it.

    Glock I have my 1911 .22 conversion (Colt lower w/ Marvel Percision 'Unit 1' upper) setup with a top end sight rail that has no sights at all, front or rear, as well as a second top that has traditional bullseye iron sights.
    For bullseye matches I attach a red dot to it. Otherwise for combat training I'll often run it with no reddot and no nothing. Utterly sightless....Just a gun with a flat open top.

    By using NPOA alone I and students I work with I've found can hit an FBI 'Q' target at out to 21 yards with fine combat accuracy (inside the head, neck and upper torso)
    With students it just takes showing them what NPOA is and helping them to program it into their brain using dry fire first followed by one and two shot only close distance (10') live fire.
    Then I show them tips on how to use the slide or even the firing pin as a reference point to 'aim' combat accurate fire. This at full extension using a one or two hand hold...Not even being point shooting stuff.
    People typically are stunned when they see this, and even more so after just a few minutes effort to see the what can be done results.
    Such training is purposeful too; Such as running non-trit iron sights under low lighting or say you've been hit int he head and are bleeding into the eyes resulting in a narrowed/reduced sight picture...With an aggressing threat.
    No sight picture or even sights at all...No problem.

    Improvise, adapt and overcome.
    As well _do not panic_, nor give up. : p

    - Janq

    P.S.
    Next time I'm at the range running the above gun I'll make a quick video of the exercise and gun & results to post here.
    It's an extreme case scenario...BUT under IDPA major match conditions I've used the technique to score well; 2008 S&W IDPA Indoor Nationals at the stage called 'At The Disco' which was very low light with green light foreground and no ambient light background.
    This stumped everyone including the 'God Squad' shooters. Meanwhile myself I simply 'cheated' and used multiple alternative sighting methods while then running a gun that had black non-trit target sights. It's course of fire was basically 'The Standards' as fired in the near darkness under dark green light (same color as most folks trit vials).
    When I'd finished up my string of fire it was Craig Buckland, of Team S&W, running that stage and he asked me how the heck did I shoot that at all and using target sights too. I'd just smiled and shrugged. The effort was not unfamiliar. : )
    I'm not a super shooter...But I will survive, is my mindset and goal.

    For those who do not know what 'NPOA' means or is; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQtY2gkUM0Y
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  5. #64
    Senior Member Array Matthew Temkin's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    nyc
    Posts
    710
    Interesting article on just this topic from police.com

    http://www.policeone.com/police-prod...al-discharges/

    Can you really prevent unintentional discharges?

    You're trained that the surest way to prevent an unintentional discharge is to keep your finger outside the trigger guard until you've made the decision to shoot.

    But under stress, will you -- can you -- reliably do that?

    Maybe not, according to a study of police performance under realistic conditions. Indeed, a significant percentage of officers not only unintentionally place their finger directly on the trigger in a stress situation, even though they've been drilled not to do so, but they're completely unaware that they've made that risky movement. They're so unconscious of it, they deny it afterward.

    Researcher Christopher Heim concludes: "It seems as if the finger does not in all cases obey the brain."

    Dr. Bill Lewinski, executive director of the Force Science Research Center (FSRC) at Minnesota State University-Mankato, describes Heim's study as "pioneering" and says it raises important new questions about the dynamics of unintended discharges and the training required to prevent them.

    With the help of a colleague and police instructors, Heim, a PhD candidate at the Institute of Sports Science at the University of Frankfurt (Germany), ran two critical experiments at the request of the Association of German Police Trainers. The Association was concerned about "an increasing number of people [being] injured, sometimes fatally, as a result of police weapons being discharged unintentionally," Heim says.

    That concern is shared in the U.S. Just last week the Washington (DC) Times reported a startling review by the federal government of 267 shootings by agents from the FBI, ATF, DEA and the U.S. Marshals Service during fiscal 2000 through fiscal 2003. More than 5% of the total (14) were determined to be "unintentional discharges during enforcement operations," and nearly one-third (88) were "unintentional discharges during nonenforcement activities, such as training and weapons cleaning." [See "Justice Mulls Shooting Standard," by Jerry Seper, Washington Times, Oct. 8, 2004.]

    Theoretically, researcher Heim points out, "unintentional discharge should be impossible" because police in Germany, America and most other modern countries are trained and under strict orders to keep the index finger on the trigger guard or on the frame until "a decision to fire has been made. If regulations were strictly followed, there would logically be no incidents" of shooting without intent.

    Obviously that ideal is yet to be achieved. Heim's work brings new insights to the problem.

    In his first study, 33 male and 13 female officers of different ranks and years of service, were sent into a room to arrest a "suspect" and to "act in a way they thought appropriate" while doing so. The officers were armed with a SIG-Sauer P226 that was rigged with force sensors on the trigger and grip. All the officers were instructed that if they drew the gun during the exercise, they were to keep their finger off the trigger unless they had made the decision to shoot, per their training and department regs.

    As the role-play evolved, 34 of the 46 officers drew the gun and one officer actually fired, intentionally. Of the 33 others who drew, all insisted that they had followed instructions to keep their finger outside the trigger guard, because they'd not made a decision to shoot.

    The sensors told a different tale.

    Seven of the 33 -- more than 20 percent -- had, in fact, touched the trigger hard enough to activate the sensor. Even the officer who eventually fired his weapon "not only touched the trigger twice before actually firing and once again afterwards, but also had his finger on it long before actually firing," Heim notes. Yet he too maintained he'd kept his finger well clear of the trigger until the very split-second before he fired.

    In a second series of experiments Heim explored how various body movements might affect an officer who has his or her finger on the trigger but does not have an immediate intention to shoot. Specifically, would certain movements cause an officer to involuntarily increase pressure on the trigger enough to unintentionally discharge a round?

    Heim ran 25 participants (13 female and 12 male, average age 25, all armed with the sensor-equipped SIG) through repetitions of 13 vigorous movements common to police work while their index finger was on the trigger.

    In about 6 per cent of cases, enough trigger pressure was registered to have fired the pistol had it been uncocked (that is, mechanically set for an initial double-action trigger pull). In about 20 per cent of cases, the pressure was sufficient to have fired the gun had it been cocked (as with secondary rounds). The gun used had a 12-pound double-action trigger pull and a 5-pound pull, single-action.

    The motions that caused the greatest contraction of the trigger finger--and thus the greatest force exerted on the trigger--were all jumping motions, whether with both legs or a single leg on either side of the body. The next greatest contracting force was caused by an abrupt loss of balance. Next were single-leg kicks (especially using the gun-side leg).

    The lowest amount of pressure on the trigger was caused using the non-gun hand to push or pull a solid bar and to push a pulley apparatus.

    No emotional stress was involved in this experiment. "If stress were added, we might expect that the percentages of those officers pulling the trigger would go up," says the FSRC's Lewinski.

    Heim's research confirms the "contralateral contraction" theory originally credited to Dr. Roger Enoka, who runs the Center for Neuroscience at the University of Colorado at Boulder. This theory holds that the hand gripping a gun is affected by "sympathetic" reflexive reactions to the movement of other limbs, causing uncontrollable contraction of the gunhand fingers. "A large number of different groups of muscles in different parts of the body work together," Heim explains, and such "involuntary muscle actions" can play a role in unintentional discharges by affecting the grip and trigger finger.

    Besides a sudden loss of balance and the use of other limbs (during a rapid tactical building entry or a struggle with a suspect, as examples), Heim believes that a "startle reaction" can also stimulate a dangerous involuntary muscle reaction, although this has never been tested in a laboratory setting.

    Lewinski suggests several of other possible causes of involuntary trigger squeeze as well:

    1. In studies of his own involving subjects drawing a handgun and extending it out to a shooting position, Lewinski has found that roughly 1 in 5 individuals unintentionally fires the weapon as it is brought up to eye level and pushed forward. "There appears to be something about the way the gun is moved and manipulated that puts contractile pressure on the wrist and trigger finger," prompting an involuntary shooting by some subjects, Lewinski explains.

    Lewinski's study, which employed a gun with a 12-pound trigger pull, is the first to suggest that even the mere biomechanical manipulation of a firearm may cause a discharge if the shooter's finger is on the trigger.

    His tests involved "naïve" subjects without firearms training, but the results would likely hold with officers too, he speculates.

    2. The Mayo Clinic has identified and studied a phenomenon found among some golfers called "yips." This is an "uncontrollable, forceful spasmodic jerk" that is associated with an abnormally high heart rate and involves unusually intense muscle activity in the forearm and wrist, resulting in a putter being gripped with increased force.

    "Some people seem more susceptible to this than others," Lewinski says, "but we don't know precisely why. There seem to be problems in the neuromuscular system, but for the most part it's an undiagnosable and largely unexplained condition."

    He points out, however, that police activities involving drawn guns obviously tend to increase heart rate, one of the associated factors. In Heim's first experiment, for example, the heart rates of participants were significantly elevated (by 50 per cent on average) just by the role-playing exercise.

    3. Another phenomenon that may be involved is "hand confusion," which is different from contralateral sympathetic contraction. "Hand confusion involves the inability of the brain to control what each hand is doing in a situation," Lewinski explains. "It is evident most often under stress and in multi-tasking situations."

    For example, if you infrequently search a building with a flashlight in one hand and a gun in the other, your brain may become confused and send contraction signals to the wrong hand in a moment of stress, resulting in an unintentional discharge if your finger is on the trigger. Or, disastrously for you, you may push on your flashlight instead of your trigger when your life is suddenly threatened.

    In analyzing Heim's first study, which suggests that even if you want to keep your finger safely outside the trigger guard it may still end up inside, Lewinski offers some possible explanations of what may be to blame for this occurring:

    1. One possibility is that distraction is involved. "Your intention may be to keep your finger in a safe place and initially you may consciously remind yourself of that," he explains. "But then you get distracted from that focus by a more urgent emergency" and your finger unconsciously slips to the trigger.

    As comparable illustration, "If you're very conscious of not banging your knee when you get into your patrol car, it's easy to avoid. But if something distracts you as you're getting in and you switch your attention to that, you may very well bang your knee even though you intended not to."

    2. Your body may instinctively seek what's most natural. Keeping your finger extended along the trigger guard or the frame "is not a 'normal' grip position," Lewinski suggests, "and because it's abnormal there may be an unconscious tendency to assume another less desirable but more natural position."

    3. Putting your finger on the trigger may reflect a psychological need for reassurance. One of the Force Science Research Center's national advisory board members, firearms expert Tom Aveni, calls this tendency "trigger affirmation." Aveni has pointed out that it's his experience as a trainer that officers more often unconsciously put their finger inside the trigger guard when they are under potential threat conditions in dark surroundings. Lewinski says they may subconsciously be seeking "psychological reassurance that they are able to quickly defend themselves against a feared, anticipated threat." Their fearful fantasies heighten their stress level and, ironically, make a potentially dangerous unintended discharge more likely.

    Building on Heim's intriguing findings, unintentional discharges are a problem the FSRC plans to study intently. Lewinski foresees a 3-part research approach: 1) refining the testing technology to assure that the nature of the problem is fully and accurately defined; 2) more deeply investigating the psychology and neurology involved in inappropriate finger placement and unintended trigger squeeze, as well as the little-researched hand-confusion phenomenon and 3) exploring important training issues, including whether different or longer training can affect the incidence of unintentional discharges. "We really don't know the amount or nature of training that might be best," Lewinski says. "But Heim's studies suggest that current training is not providing wholly satisfactory solutions to the problem."

    Until better approaches can be documented, Lewinski proposes that more attention be given in recruit and in-service training to emphasizing and practicing under stress the importance of keeping the finger away from the trigger until there's a definite decision to shoot. While present training may need improvement, he points out that most officers in Heim's experiments did obey instructions and training in regards to trigger engagement. "Perhaps more emphasis and practice in training could improve that percentage," Lewinski says. "Certainly we would not expect more training to worsen the situation."

    In addition, he proposes that officers devote more practice to mastering rapid reholstering. At least in some situations this will allow you to safely secure your gun when circumstances change and you no longer need it in hand. With your sidearm holstered, you're then free to use both hands to control a nonlethal encounter without concern about an unintended firing. However, Lewinski emphasizes, this is another area where more research is needed to identify the best training methods.

    As sobering reminders of the importance of all this, Lewinski cites numerous cases on record in which officers have shot each other, as well as civilians, in stressful situations because of unintentional discharges. He points to the case of a Texas officer he's currently helping to defend as an expert witness.

    During a struggle with a belligerent and uncooperative 14-year-old suspect, that officer's gun discharged and killed the kid. The officer insists the shooting was not intentional.

    He is now scheduled for trial for murder.



    About the author
    The FSR

  6. #65
    Distinguished Member Array INccwchris's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Indianapolis
    Posts
    1,786
    Any time I drew my firearm on a suspect or when I felt like i was shady and i would draw and place it in a coat pocket to stay concealed, my finger would be on the side of the trigger not on the trigger where i could pull, but on the side of the trigger
    "The value you put on the lost will be determined by the sacrifice you are willing to make to seek them until they are found."

  7. #66
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    6,781
    BK,

    Some folks don't care for the trigger guard as being an 'index point', but personally I allow it.

    Some folks have really long fingers and others have small hands, either of which do not at times well support frame index on an autoloader.
    Also on revolvers taking a frame index might not be possible...So the trigger guard is to my mind an acceptable just less than optimal option.
    IMHO _any index point_ is better than a trigger finger rested on the trigger....When not intending in the immediate to fire.

    Safest (frame index), safe (trigger guard index), and unsafe (finger rested on the trigger) to my own view.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  8. #67
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    5,272
    Matt,
    I did a quick skim read of the article, I will go back later for an indepth read as I have to go out and blow snow directly. We are in the middle of a semi-blizzard. I will make a few quick points based on personal experience.

    The problem of NDs and finger indexing directly relates to holding individual(s) at gunpoint in contrast to firing immediately on drawing. The time element involved holding individual(s) at gunpoint provides a much greater window for negligent or involuntary actions leading to as ND.

    My personal solution was to not hold individual(s) at gunpoint unless there was sufficient reason to believe that a threat requiring a lethal response was quite possible and eminent. This method of operation was based on the fact that the speed of my draw/firing was practiced, refined and tested to as high a level as I could achieve. It was/is my belief that the greater speed that one can effectively project lethal force, the later one can wait to project that force. A side benefit of this less frequent exposure of citizens who turned out to be a non threat to a drawn gun by LE personnel.

    I'm sure that others views and experiences will vary from this, but that was/is mine.

    I will probably have further coments when time allows.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  9. #68
    Senior Member Array Matthew Temkin's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    nyc
    Posts
    710
    We all know what we should do.
    For example, we should always use the sights, get into the proper stance, keep our finger off the trigger and never miss what we are shooting at.
    Sad to say, reality does not always follow along with our script--and no matter how often we train to the contrary.
    I realize few want to hear this, but if officers were trained how to safely keep their fingers on the trigger perhaps they will NOT have an ND when startled.
    Just a thought...

  10. #69
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    5,272
    Matt,
    As per the document that you posted, there were some interesting figures. Over a period of three years, the Feds had around a 5% rate of unintentional discharges during enforcement shootings. I am unaware of the Feds training and operational regimen relative to finger indexing, but for now I will go on the basis that it is frame indexing. In one of reasearcher Heim's experiments around 21% of officers participating in the arrest scenario had unintentionally discharges. These numbers reflect a 95% and 79% rate, respectively, of no unintentional discharges. When one compares this to the national hit rate of LE of, IIRC, around 20%, it would seem that the frame indexed finger training and application is considerably more successful than than the shooting training and application.

    I believe that there is sufficient data to indicate that there will be unintentional discharges whatever indexing is used. The goal, as I perceive it, is reduce the number of those unintentional discharges to the lowest possible number, through training and what appears to be the best possible operating procedure to accomplish that goal.

    I would be interested in your view of training that would train officers how to safely keep their fingers on the trigger and not have an ND when startled or engaging in other activities noted as causes of NDs in the article.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  11. #70
    Senior Member Array stevem174's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    MO
    Posts
    749
    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Training today is slanted to protect institutions from lawsuits. When we are talking finger off the trigger for safety reasons, we must first decide for who's safety. The BGs, who's actions committed you to draw in the first place, or yours?
    Yep!
    Don't do things you don't want to explain to the Paramedics!

    Stupidity should be painful.

  12. #71
    Senior Member Array Matthew Temkin's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    nyc
    Posts
    710
    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    Matt,
    As per the document that you posted, there were some interesting figures. Over a period of three years, the Feds had around a 5% rate of unintentional discharges during enforcement shootings. I am unaware of the Feds training and operational regimen relative to finger indexing, but for now I will go on the basis that it is frame indexing. In one of reasearcher Heim's experiments around 21% of officers participating in the arrest scenario had unintentionally discharges. These numbers reflect a 95% and 79% rate, respectively, of no unintentional discharges. When one compares this to the national hit rate of LE of, IIRC, around 20%, it would seem that the frame indexed finger training and application is considerably more successful than than the shooting training and application.

    I believe that there is sufficient data to indicate that there will be unintentional discharges whatever indexing is used. The goal, as I perceive it, is reduce the number of those unintentional discharges to the lowest possible number, through training and what appears to be the best possible operating procedure to accomplish that goal.

    I would be interested in your view of training that would train officers how to safely keep their fingers on the trigger and not have an ND when startled or engaging in other activities noted as causes of NDs in the article.
    Let us start by facing reality, as we do when teaching point shooting.
    Which is that under stress many people will not look at the sights.
    ( Yes, perhaps so called "highly trained" experts can use the sights no matter what, but we must face reality that 98% of LEO's will never achieve such status.)

    So--do we ignore this and keep hammering in, "Front sight press,front sight pressfrontsightpress--or do we teach them how to deliver accurate fire without the use of sights?
    If we do the latter then we first have to believe that point shooting is accurate and can be easily learned by the masses.
    Same with the subject at hand.
    Now it is my belief that under the stress of life or death combat people will keep their fingers on the trigger--on handguns as opposed to long guns-- no matter how often they are trained not to.
    ( Same thing with use of the sights at close range, at least IMHO)

    So, #1--choose a weapon for the masses, which is very forgiving of having one's finger on the trigger.
    Yes, the old DA wheelgun comes to mind, but agencies are already on track by issuing DAO semi autos.

    #2 Introduce SUL as a ready position, especially when working in groups, since SUL makes placing one's finger on the trigger unnatural and almost painful.

    #3 Let them get used to operating with their fingers on the trigger during the advanced stages of training and during FOF.

    Let them see and feel for themselves that it CAN be done and that the handgun will not just go off "by itself."
    Perhaps the reason for so many ND's
    is is that the officer assumes that his finger is indexed on the frame when it is not, and they have no experience in handling a stress situation when they are not doing so?
    I am no expert, but back in 1980 when going through the NYC Court Officer Academy--and we were given the exact training course as the NYPD and NYC Corrections--no one ever stressed finger off/finger on.
    Other than being ordered never to cock our revolvers, it just was not an issue.
    To be honest my finger was always on trigger throughout the course.
    I would go on to take a fair amount of bad guys at gun point--on duty, off duty and while moonlighting security gigs.
    I once ran down an escaping prisoner, which ended up with us both on the ground and him trying to grab by drawn Model 10.
    I ended the situation by ramming the barrel down his throat, screaming at him, "You want it--YOU GOT IT MOTHRE@#$%#@"
    Finger on trigger all the time and no AD.
    Another time I was working security at a concert and a few of us were closing in on someone who just robbed a cashier.
    I was young and dumb and was taking the lead when he reached into his waist band.
    In one swift move ( damn it is good being young ) I closed the distance, drew my snubbie from it's pancake holster, spun him sideways and jabbed him with my muzzle while giving the command, "Police Officers--Don't Move."
    Again, no AD.
    I realize that such tactics would never be taught today (Old time cops taught me that the heavy barrel of a model 10 makes a great impact weapon.
    Others said to make sure you get the first shot off. Hit or miss, it buys you a second or two.) in our lawyer ridden society, but you asked how I would train officers and this is my reply.
    No surprise that LEO Academies are not knocking down my door with job offers.

  13. #72
    Member Array BigBadBang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Lone Star State
    Posts
    73
    My finger has always been on the trigger. After reading this thread yesterday - went home & practiced about 100 draws with finger indexed - noticed no diff in shot times - will definately be practicing with finger indexed until it becomes second nature -

    Thanks for the insight guys & another reason why I decided to join this forum!!!

  14. #73
    VIP Member
    Array OldVet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    S. Florida, north of the Miami mess, south of the Mouse trap
    Posts
    16,260
    I have nothing against training. I think it is all good. Yet I get so tired of reading the "If you trained properly..." responses. My experiences in the military and in SCUBA instruction have shown me time after time that no matter how much some train, no matter how perfect one tweaks the mind and muscles, when real-world stress is introduced, much (if not most) of the time, all that training can vanish in a milli-second and only the barest reactions are maintained.

    I train "finger off" and still, until the real deal happens (and hopefully won't), I won't know where my finger will end up. I'd like to thing my training would "rake over" but chances are it very well may not.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

  15. #74
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    8,899
    On occasion, I am recruited by our training dept to work with people who have a hard time qualifying. Here are a couple of things that I have noticed;

    Proper draw technique is proportional to the ability to deliver well aimed shots on target.

    When the weapon feels natural in the hand, scores go up. One of my favorite training techniques, is off the range. I will instruct the person to go home, make a complete safe weapon, and sit around watching TV, and just "hold' their weapon. I have had officers tell me that this alone dramatically increased their range shooting, and scores. IMO, this familiarization technique is as helpful as firing hundreds of rounds.

    Holster selection is important when teaching finger indexing. Some, such as the Raptor Level3, promote this because the trigger finger is straight down against the frame, while the middle finger is engaging the release.

    Keeping the finger out of the trigger guard is important for "gun grab" drills. Your finger can be broken very easily if caught inside the trigger guard, not to mention the fact that there will be a discharge of the weapon just by the very nature of the technique employed.
    From my observations, I can see no advantage either in time, or tactics to having your finger covering the trigger.

  16. #75
    VIP Member
    Array Saber's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Yuma, Arizona
    Posts
    2,591
    I initially contributed to this thread based on my own experiences as a LEO when all we carried was N-Frame style revolvers. Now that I’ve read more posts and references I’ve learned a lot and I recall a bit more.

    For whatever reason, I noticed that I did have more of a tendency to slip the index finger closer towards the trigger well with my 1911 than with my revolver(s). Perhaps it’s the more positive feel of the upper left side of the right index finger when forced in contact with the revolver cylinder.

    My mental discipline was always to point at the threat as though I wasn’t holding a gun at all. Frankly, I don’t know why I don’t have the same mental precept when I hold a semi-auto. In any event, I know I need to train more often but after decades of shooting, I’ve become complacent with my skills which undoubtedly have faded.

    The whole neurological thing’ and associated studies are revealing, and some of that I actually have first-hand knowledge of as a case study patient at Walter Reed. Though not specifically involved in gun handling studies, I was subjected to other studies of the neurological system.

    In any event, I guess I need to save up for the gun course I keep putting off as it’s easily $1k when its all said and done.

    Regards,
    Dan
    “Monsters are real and so are ghosts. They live inside of us, and sometimes they win.”
    ~ Stephen King

Page 5 of 8 FirstFirst 12345678 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. Looking At Holster When Reholstering - Mistake or Advantage?
    By Gabe Suarez in forum Defensive Carry & Tactical Training
    Replies: 23
    Last Post: February 5th, 2011, 10:27 PM
  2. Advantage Arms .22 Trigger
    By BlackShadow0 in forum General Firearm Discussion
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: January 12th, 2011, 05:41 PM
  3. Keep your finger off the trigger...
    By ExactlyMyPoint in forum Off Topic & Humor Discussion
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: November 29th, 2008, 06:30 PM
  4. Finger Off The Trigger.
    By Miggy in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
    Replies: 33
    Last Post: September 13th, 2007, 11:00 PM
  5. LDA Trigger by Para...what is the advantage?
    By Hivoltage in forum Defensive Carry Guns
    Replies: 42
    Last Post: October 23rd, 2005, 03:54 PM

Search tags for this page

christopher heims unintentional discharges
,
did cowboys say hair trigger finger ?
,
ready position trigger finger
,
suarez finger on the trigger
,

tactical advantage scenario

,
tactical solutions, finger on the trigger?
,

trigger finger outside of trigger gaurd and loss of balance

,
trigger finger placement and unintentional discharge case study
,
trigger finger placement ww2
,
trigger finger torque while shooting
,
unintentional discharge study
,
when did police and military start training with their finger out of the trigger guard
Click on a term to search for related topics.