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Finger On The Trigger - Mistake Or Tactical Advantage?

9K views 112 replies 49 participants last post by  Janq 
#1 ·
Finger On The Trigger - Mistake Or Tactical Advantage?

So let me ask you guys...have any of you pointed a gun at a bad guy...or suspected bad guy...or anyone you remotely thought you might really have to shoot with your finger OFF the trigger? I am not talking about "searching for the contact", nor "mid-fight movement", but rather the static times when you have challenged someone whom you thought you might have to shoot...but you didn't quite have enough information to press the trigger yet. Where was your finger?

I am well aware of all so-called safety rules, but being anal retentive about this sort of thing only hurts your survivability n the real world for which we train.

Lets set the dogma aside and actually think about this.

Certainly there is a place for "finger off trigger", but holding an adversary at gunpoint while he decides how to respond to your challenge and determines whether you will shoot him or not may not be it.

I am not the first to say this. In a 2000 write up in the now gone IWBA magazine, Dr. Martin Fackler wrote about the folly of teaching finger-always-off methodology. As expected, the dino-cops of the era ate him alive and the matter was dropped.

Even earlier, gunmen of the pre-modern technique world did not suffer from fear of their triggers as is evidenced by the photos and data from that age. Look at the lead photo. It is of a young Rex Applegate in his "ready position". Notice the finger. Did we all suddenly become a nation of jittery butterfingers in 1976? Are we lesser men today than the Jordans, Askins, and Applegates of a bygone era? No..I don't think so. But I think a great deal of gunfight knowledge has been suppressed by the politically correct, guru worshippers, and liability ninnyhammers of the gun world today.

Well...you all know how much I care about getting the approval of others in the community - so here we go.

Read The Remainder Of The Article Here:http://www.warriortalknews.com/2010/12/finger-on-the-trigger-mistake-or-tactical-advantage.html#tp
 
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#4 ·
Well, I like the fact that Suarez always seems willing to open up atypical topics of discussion that are not normally rationally discussed by intelligent gun folks.

The guy is never afraid to pop open a fresh can of worms.

So...let's toss it against the wall and see what sticks and what slides off.
 
#5 ·
Yes. I have had my finger on the trigger. Didn't have to pull it. Gun has been aimed and ready to fire. I guess with years of hunting and military experince my stress level is not very high. I get very calm in tight situations.
Semper Fi
 
#89 ·
Yes. I have had my finger on the trigger. Didn't have to pull it. Gun has been aimed and ready to fire. I guess with years of hunting and military experince my stress level is not very high. I get very calm in tight situations.
Semper Fi

thats a great place and space.
 
#6 ·
in the event you need to pull and squeeze immediately your finger is going to be on the trigger as soon as you clear leather...if you are drawing to present as a warning i dont see the point of fingering the trigger...an assumption that your control will be the same in an sd situation as it is at the range may be careless..the adrenaline rush alone may be enough for you to squeeze off a round inadvertantly...

i am as interested in you to hear from the experienced members...
 
#7 ·
Many years ago I had a confrontation with a burglar who tried to break into my apartment. At about 15 feet I surprised him and leveled my Ruger Super Blackhawk at his COM. My weapon was cocked with finger off the trigger, outside the trigger guard. Fortunately he made a wise choice and attacked to the rear. (911 call resulted in quick apprehension of the BG who I later identified as the perpetrator)

I shoot a lot of IDPA and have been trained to not put my finger on the trigger until I'm on target and ready to fire. Doing otherwise is dangerous and increases the likelihood of an ND.
 
#8 · (Edited)
This is simple.

Grab a shot timer...And a gunman.
Take the shooter(s) to a live fire range and give the task to draw, bring the gun as charged in condition zero (frame safety thumbed off/down toward those that have one) to full extension and wait for the buzzer.

Direct the shooter to first do so with finger on the trigger to their own degree of comfort, and that when the buzzer goes off to place a controlled pair into a static target (as per the OPs scenario of holding a threat) at a distance of 15 feet.
Do this twice for a total of four rounds fired.

On paper note down the time differential between the buzzer and the first shot as well as that between the first shot and the second shot.
Also note/mark the location of the hits on target.

Repeat the test in exact manner again for a controlled pair, only this time do so with trigger finger indexed as a the start point.

Compare and contrast all four data points:
* First shot fired time differential as from buzzer alert;
* Second shot fired time differential as from first shot fired;
* Point of impact at the threat relative to combat accuracy and internal organs wounding effect potential;
* Shots fired group size/spread.

I would bet a buck that the differential against this test for any handgun/pistol shooter regardless of skillset be the shooter by background...
* Novice ('Joe Average-Gunowner' and 'Chris Generic-Criminal')
* Competitor (IDPA, IPSC, USPSA, SASS, etc.)
* Recreational Shooter (hunters, can plinkers and Airsoft as well as paintball marker device users too)
* Professionals of indeterminate level and degree of training (military/para-military, law enforcement or EPS) which in itself functionally may be _anything_ up to and including novice level (!)

...That the results of this simple to perform and evaluate test would be negligible in time gain/loss at a measure of tenths of a second if not less.
Along with target hit accuracy result differential measured in single digit millimeters as rather than inches.

While gaining no real measurable advantage in ability to respond, especially for shooters who are by tested function (not paper certificates only or so called 'time on the job' merit assumption) advanced skillset shooters.

In kind to the inverse I would also against the same dollar bet very much expect that there be a real and measurable advantage as to _prevent_ negligent discharges by manner of either operator error (see the SureFire WML thread that has been running two weeks now!) and/or that of sympathetic body alarm response upon being surprised by the unexpected and/or suffering from an adrenalin dump (see the FL school board video where the shooter make an ND into the floor from a week ago!).

What a gun handler stands to gain from _training and putting to practice_ to have and keep the finger indexed so as to become an automatic learned behavior, far outweighs the commonly expensive if not life changing results of placing fingers on triggers and depending solely on brain to body muscular control to a degree of 4lbs. (SA mode combat/duty mode pistol) to 9lbs. (Glock 'NYC Trigger') trigger pull.

One dollar says...
Fingers off the trigger indexed at the ready to fire IF and when need be > Fingers 'resting' on the trigger at the ready to fire IF and when need be.

As to the pic/image as featured in that blog entry, he does (or should) know that those images were propaganda photos specifically and commonly made in those times as _staged_ with purposeful appearance to look and seem menacing...As a deterrent to criminals present & future.
See the famous Jelly Bryce shooting a flipped quarter tossed in the air photo for same. That and this image is not of a real person actually in the moment seeking to engage never mind hold a real live threat. To imply as much and base theory off of same is just plain silly.

With respect to Suarez, who I generally agree with on many if not most items, to this I personally do disagree and am willing to bet buck that any analysis of real world scientific and quantifiable testing would support my stated view.

- Janq

P.S.
He makes mention of holding a person using 'low ready'...Who does that?
Who is trained to do such a thing as to hold an active threat using a _low ready_ position, outside of what you very often see featured on TV & Move cop shows...Especially circa 80s and earlier.
Anyone fool enough to think to attempt holding an _imminent threat_ (if not an imminent threat then why is the gun drawn?!) using low ready position hold, simply is asking to be shot. That just makes no sense at all.
Low ready is in fact a position of readiness as to hold the gun; It is NOT a manner of active engagement toward a threat as to seek nor to hold/detain...Ala Gary Cooper vintage cowboy flicks.
 
#9 · (Edited)
Janq makes great points!

I always enjoy your posts....even when I disagree with you. In this case I agree mostly.

As far as -low ready-, I always learned that low ready meant just low enough that you can see the BG's hands. And yes, low ready is a trained and acceptable method of engagement, at least in LE.

As far as the finger on/off trigger, I agree completely. The safety advantage is clear, the time advantage is not enough to risk the difference in safety.

Edit: I have had my gun on a suspect (on duty), finger remained indexed.
 
#12 ·
I don't believe that in many cases that is the most time significant point, relative to the situation being addressed.

I believe that with DA/SA handguns, of various types that are carried by many, there is a greater variation in time, from signal/determination to fire, depending on if that weapon is in double or single action mode than there is if the trigger finger is frame or trigger indexed.

This would not be in effect with weapons that always have the same trigger pull.

Carrying those types of DA/SA weapons (92FS or revolver) personally I address the type of situation described as follows. Manual cocking of the hammer, bringing the weapon to single action mode, trigger finger indexd on the frame. I believe that this provides a greater time advantage than if the weapon was left in the double action mode and the trigger finger indexed on the trigger. While increasing the speed with which a shot can be fired, it also maintains the safety factor. Relative to drama or actual effect, this also conveys a seriousness of intent on the part of the weapon holder.

I would be willing to bet a dollar on that.
 
#14 ·
Many years ago I quoted WE Fairbairns book, Shooting to Live, which advised training officers to SAFELY keep their fingers on the trigger of handguns on several gun/training forums.
Why did Fairbairn advise this?
Because it was his belief that under the stress of life or death combat men will naturally finger the trigger no matter how often they have been trained not to.
Yes, some may say there is a very small difference in time between finger off/finger on, but the typical officer may disagree with the shot timer ( done in a non life threatening range setting.) when it's his ass on the line.
I have not taken a bad guy at gunpoint in over 2 decades, but my finger was always on the trigger of my Model 10 or snubbie when doing so.
Our academy ( I am a former NYC Court Officer and moonlighted security jobs for many years) never made an issue of this, other to warn us to never cock our revolvers.
After posting this on several forums I got hammered by many for even suggesting such a dangerous practice, so I am glad to see someone else bring this up.
I must add, however, that carrying in SUL makes it very hard to keep one's finger on the trigger due to it being unnatural, so perhaps this can be a valid alternative.
Anyway, I will watch this threads responses with much interest.
 
#15 ·
I'm an old fart who would probably choose to keep the finger off the trigger until I decided to shoot.
I'm not a cop, I've never been robbed (in person), nor have I had the experience of a BG induced adrenaline rush...though I have experienced adrenaline rushes.

Not having the training nor experience of actually interacting with BG's while armed, I'm not confident enough to point a firearm and then decide to hold the BG for the cops...but one never knows what situations life may bring.
In the scenarios my mind's eye sometimes develop while maintaining SA in parking lots and questionable areas at night, I would prefer to think that when the firearm has to come out of the holster, there WILL be a lot of 'thunder and lightning' as the decision will have already been made to defend myself.

This is a tough question...I just hope that my life's shooting experiences will only encompass those at the range, and not in a Wally World parking lot.
 
#16 ·
All of my interactions involving BG's and firearms have been in the military.

But there have been several times I was pretty sure I was going to have to shoot someone, and once I flicked the safety off on my M-16, my finger was on the trigger. A time or two I as actually starting to put pressure on the trigger when I realized I shouldn't shoot. Generally these instances would be something like, yell a command at someone, and then, proceeding up the escalation of force ladder, when they didn't stop, I would sight in with finger off the trigger, and again yell a command. A few of them would keep coming, at which point the safety would come off, and finger on the trigger, and they would get issued a final verbal warning. And it probably took longer for you to read all of what I just wrote than for that whole encounter to take place. But then, most of the times, something would come up that made me decide not to shoot.
 
#17 ·
No doubt QKShooter brings up an interesting topic. And yes, gunfighters of yesterday did in fact have a finger on the trigger type style. Certainly at least in countless photographs. I also agree with Janq, in such that the difference in speed is probably negligible.

However, for almost 40 years now, I have trained with finger off techniques which have been ingrained into my psyche to such a point, I don't see any advantage trying to switch would be. In fact, at this point, it would no doubt be more dangerous for me to try.

As far as providing any tactical advantage, I think it's a coin toss.

I do know that when I see someones finger resting on the trigger, my pucker factor goes up exponentially. And that's a fact!
 
#19 ·
For whatever reason, when I was taught the rules of safety, there were 3:

1. Assume all guns are loaded until proven otherwise.
2. Don't point the gun at anything you don't want to shoot.
3. Know your target and your backstop.

There was nothing about finger-on or -off the trigger. Rule 2 covers that issue.

So let's look at that for a moment. The "no finger on trigger until ready to shoot" presupposes some instance in which you'd be pointing the gun at somebody, but for some reason or other not pulling the trigger. There is some room for discussion there.

Another point is that some handguns, like an SP101, for example, or a 686, will have a fairly strong trigger pull. Unlikely you'd squeeze it all the way through DA by accident. Some semiautos are practically like a revolver at SA - hair trigger. In the latter case, finger-off-trigger is really important.

In all the excitement and adrenaline of a real-life situation, there's no question that it's probably best to keep that finger indexed until the Moment of Truth. Then again, with all that going on, no matter how much training you have, you'll probably do whatever feels right at the time.
 
#20 ·
I've related this story a couple of times here, but what the heck - it's appropriate, and one more can't hurt...

I read of a study (not a scientific one, but an interesting one nonetheless) where students in a FoF (airsoft) scenario were faced with the "bad guy in the alley" situation. While the students were engaging the bad guy (he was a potentially serious threat, but not an OBVIOUS and IMMEDIATE one - most students had their weapons out, some had it pointed at the bad guy), a hidden "bum" that was concealed in the debris lining the dark alley reached out and grabbed the student by the foot or ankle. EVERY student that had their finger on the trigger fired a round - even though they didn't INTEND to. This occurred regardless of trigger type or pull weight - if the finger was on the trigger in a (simulated) dangerous scenario, and the good guy was startled, he squeezed off a round. Conversely, every student that had their finger off the trigger and outside of the trigger guard did NOT have an ND...

This is certainly not proof-positive of anything, but it does illustrate that you don't get to control all the variables (by a LOOOONG shot) in an SD situation. I am much more concerned that one of the ten million things I'm not thinking about might happen than I am that someone is going to "beat" me because I am a fraction of a fraction of a second slower because my finger is off the trigger. JMO.
 
#22 ·
I haven't been in an encounter but every time I train it is draw to low ready, bring up to site target while disengaging safety, when target is acquired toggle the trigger. When pistol is off the target my finger is off the trigger.
 
#23 ·
I coudnt count the times I have drawn on perps, and my finger is always on the trigger. I am very cool under pressure and methodical in my actions though. I know many in the current way of training find this risky, but I know myself and my gun.
 
#24 ·
Interesting thread. I'd like to say I'm a stud and will keep my finger off of the trigger but me-thinks that when the poop hits the fan I will have my finger on and ready to squeeze.

On the other hand I am not an LEO and have no real intention of holding someone at gunpoint. Life has messed up my plans in the past though...
 
#25 ·
Training today is slanted to protect institutions from lawsuits. When we are talking finger off the trigger for safety reasons, we must first decide for who's safety. The BGs, who's actions committed you to draw in the first place, or yours?
 
#26 ·
Agreed OPFOR, very much.

If a threat beats a GG to the trigger pull by a fraction of a second, then well that GG was doomed before the trigger pull.
Not being glib...Just being honestly practical.

I've got literally _years_ of formal FOF experience under my belt; Including eight years of semi-pro tournament level (state and regional long dollar entry & prize money not running on a Sat. around in woods shooting at little kids & teens with rental guns) paintball running a $1K+ marker system that had not a mechanical but an _electronic trigger_ running a solenoid based firing system requiring just the slightest half touch to the trigger to cause it to fire....While searching for and working against a human being that was equally equipped, and who wanted my lunch just as badly as I wanted his/hers.

Guess what my manner of hold and trigger manipulation was that entire time?
Yup...Finger off the trigger.
Only in that world unlike with a firearm there is no trigger spring resistance measured in pounds...It's ounces. And there is no sear to break, just an on/off state contact switch or a magnetic pickup.
Oh, and I played what is call 'front' or point which from the whistle blow mandates a _lot_ of on the foot max exertion running, sliding and diving.
You put your finger on the trigger doing such things and absolutely positively guaranteed you will have an AD, only the round will go into your own foot or leg and boom you are out regardless leaving your 3, 5 or 7 man team down a player disadvantaged and very likely costing them the match if not tournament overall. Big money, weeks if not months of training and most times you are looking at 2 hrs to as long as a full days travel/flight. Very serious business.

I never ever handled my markers any different than I would a firearm.
Following the same four basic rules that everybody else learned and should know, with rule #4 being finger off the trigger until ready to fire. Absolutely!
You do this once or twice with an electro trigger marker and you learn quick how fraught with issue not acting right can be. But unlike with firearms, nobody goes to the morgue or cop station if they screw up. Woot!

The scenario you detail is very much believable.
It's human nature to clench the fist when startled. It only takes 4 lbs. pressure to drop the hammer on any one of my street carried 1911s.
Double that on an average Glock. Soo many people get caught out by this each year, especially so with Glocks (!), that to me I'm surprised anyone would even resurrect this item to discuss.

Meanwhile speaking to functionality how many civilians and/or professionals are caught out by threats singularly because they were not 'quick' enough to the trigger, as in not to have their finger rested on the trigger as rather than indexed?
I mean seriously can anyone even cite one case of this in the past say 36 months?
I know I cannot.

Again with respect to Suarez who unlike myself has had to hold real threats at bay while using no do over don't just sit in the 'dead zone' BGs, and even shoot them too.
But still on the whole I cannot at all help but think; 'Why...And to what functional end?!'.

It takes maybe a tenth of a second to transition from indexed to the trigger, and fire.
There is a guy in the OPs cited link that goes on talking about the steps involved in going from finger indexed to 'finding' the trigger and locating the right spot along the trigger face (!) to only then pull the trigger. I'm like huh...Are you serious?! Either this person in specific has not shot a gun but once or twice in life, or is 80+yrs. old AND with severely arthritic hands...To which would not be relevant to the 90th percentile rest of us. His statement and others akin to it in agreeance they are ignorable right out the gate.

Under pressure as we all know we do not rise to any occasion.
Be the pressure to act functional toward driving an automobile under emergency maneuvering manner, or to accomplish some task as related to a given sport...Or to put a projectile as fired from some manner of 'gun' into a space of fine degree aim and motor control. All of these to bee accomplished at X distance under Y timing on any given Sunday,Monday, Wednesday or Saturday in a wood as being say a hunter or competitor.
What allows us to rise and meet a given degree of expectation is training.

IMHO rather than question this manner of trigger finger on or off and to possibly by way of that questioning encourage both LEOs and civilians alike to effectively act improperly so as to ultimately endanger themself AND the general population who might find themself down range.
I would instead encourage Mr. Suarez to challenge more active duty LEOs to spend MUCH more of their annualized time and dimes _training_ in advanced gun handling and deployment skills as well as being more active in their quarterly & monthly practice of said training to develop and retain as mental and muscle memory what is overall scenario functionally optimal while also developing _quickness_ which in time actively allows a gun handler to BUY REACTION TIME against a countdown timer (!).
Time that otherwise as being an under trained low if any practiced and thus very much AVERAGE gun handling 'professional' or civilian, would then have no need to try to game and cheat forward by placing fingers on triggers in hopes of through that buying time while _betting_ against the house that if startled or adrenalin dumped they themself won't startle reflex, applying 4 or more pounds of pressure to their trigger.
Even as the guns bore might not in that moment of space & time be pointed at a human being...Which does not and will not make the NEGLIGENT DISCHARGE any less dangerous nor any ore excusable.

People should ask them self before buying into this one honest and direct question; 'What will this gain me, as at what cost?'.
Because in this life another truth we all know as adults not born yesterday; There is no free lunch.

- Janq
 
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