Any EMT's on here, question.... - Page 2

Any EMT's on here, question....

This is a discussion on Any EMT's on here, question.... within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I get the wait for the cops to secure the area argument. My thoughts are that once they have done this you will be too ...

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Thread: Any EMT's on here, question....

  1. #16
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    I get the wait for the cops to secure the area argument. My thoughts are that once they have done this you will be too busy answering their questions, or asserting your 5th amendment rights to be of any value to the perp. Even assuming a good shoot, it will take the cops a while to figure that out. Would they bear liability if they let you render aid and you made matters worse?
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  2. #17
    VIP Member Array jwhite75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattInFla View Post
    Of course, even if you render aid, your actions can be spun to look bad. Failed resuscitation? You delivered sub-par care to "finish him off",etc...

    Matt
    And this is the double edged sword....is the juice worth the squeeze. Some folks could not morally refuse to render aid, regardless, of the circumstances. Just make sure you have a good attroney when you go to court to explain the moral dilemma, of your choice.
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  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by RSWORDS View Post
    Duty to act is so broad that no one really can say when you do and don't... It's a gray area.

    Say he is laying unconsious on the ground bleeding out quickly...

    This is more of a moral/Ethics question... We all know the mental probkems that arise after a killing, would it be worse for you knowing you were trained to help save said persons life?
    But how do you know he is unconcious and not just playing possum? Until he is secured by LEO's or the bleeding stops on its own he is still a viable threat. Throw him a gauze pad if you like but don't get too close. As far as would it be worse......... I used my training and saved my life. The fact that he deliberately chose a course of action that ended with him possibly dead is not my responsibility.
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  4. #19
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    I would not approach the person until police have arrived and secured the scene. Hopefully when you called 911 you informed the operator that shots had been fired, so medical personnel as well as police should be on the way. Since they are not involved in the shooting, let them handle it.

    As for a duty to render aid, you called for medical personnel, that in itself is the start to rendering aid. Anything more than that I'd be too distraught to do anything.
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  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    Really folks, don't get caught up in some philosophical minutia. The law does not require you to render aid to a person who just moments earlier tried to kill you, forcing you to shoot them. I could care less what some ambulance chasing lawyer has to say about my medical training in a court room (he'll just end up looking like an idiot). I'm not required by law to treat the SOB. And furthermore, there is the safety issue of trying to give aid to a potential killer (that's your protection right there). There is no law anywhere which demands you put yourself in danger to save someone.

    No gray area about it. It's black and white. If you feel morally compelled to help your killer, that's one thing, but legally, you do not have to.
    The realities of a court room and the realities of the street are too different things. no matter your actions you will be second guessed and someone out there will be of the conclusion you did it wrong.

  6. #21
    Senior Member Array BkCo1's Avatar
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    I was taught exactly what Jang said. Call 911 and make sure you are in a safe spot. How about that Jang I approved of you statement!
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  7. #22
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    Most everyone is highlighting scene safety and how until secured/safe there is little duty to act even when on duty in an official capacity. Given the original scenario, the person that has chosen to discharge the firearm in defense of their life is likely not on duty, so there would be little legal requirement to act independent of the scene's safety. Every EMT/medic course that I have attended taught that you should size up the scene as arriving and stop short of entering a dangerous/hazmat/etc. type of scene until secured. Failing to recognize the danger in time, a quick retreat to a safe location is the normal curriculum advice. Unfortunately, if involved in a instance where a fire arm is discharge in a malicious manner, then you are already on scene. The OP already clarified that you have chosen to responded with an appropriate amount of force that resulted in an injury sufficient to stop the threat. Since the threat has already been, at least temporarily, stopped the scene is not necessarily unsafe. Retreating to a safer location may still be appropriate, but could also be highly frowned upon by the responding officers and the prosecuting attorney.

    Also, no one has yet mentioned the potential injury of other persons on the scene. Should aid be given to other people on the scene if injured, or should the focus remain on ensuring that the threat remains neutralized and waiting for the police? Since I'm already there and have the training, I fully intend to ensure that police/medical have been called, then render medical care to myself first if injured, then to other persons on the scene that may be injured. After law enforcement arrives, I plan to state that I have a CCW, discharged my firearm in defense of my life against an attacker that meant to cause me grave bodily harm, and identify myself as a paramedic. Once the bad guy is secured, I will then ask of the LEO's on scene if I am allowed to render medical care to the injured bad guy. I full expect to be detained at this point, and to either be told no or ignored, but at least I attempted to provide medical aid to an injured person once I was certain that they posed no additional danger.

    Waiting until after law enforcement has arrived to attempt aid may seem odd. My reason is that at one point in time I considered the person a sufficient threat to respond with a level of force that caused injury to that person. The law in most states attempts to define the level of threat to a person that allows for a response with physical force. I have never seen a law that defines when that threat stops, and have no training to legally backup my decision that the bad guy is no longer a threat and I can safely render medical aid. The police can make the determination when a person is or is not posing a threat to themselves or others.

    I've asked myself this question a couple of times and always thought that the answer was clear. However after reading the responses tonight, perhaps this issue does not have a clear answer.

  8. #23
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    GMS, Good Post!

    I don't disagree with rendering aid, once law enforcement is on scene and has determined the suspect is no longer a threat. As I posted earlier, you don't know without getting up close and physically searching the suspect if he has an additional gun, or other weapon. And no one is required to do that.

    Once the police have secured the suspect by either searching them or handcuffing them, I have no problem treating the suspect. And depending on your states law regarding off duty personnel, you may at that point have a duty to act.
    -Bark'n
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  9. #24
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    Why would law enforcement upon arrival to the scene of a man on man shooting allow one of the participants (the shooter!) to get near never mind touch and preform any manner of procedure on what is in the immediate a victim?

    What good reasons would they have to do this, rather than say at a minimum detain and sequester the shooter elsewhere for interview if not cuff and contain him within a cruiser for his own security and theirs...Never mind thought toward preservation of what is in the immediate a crime scene?

    It's one thing for an off-duty EMT to happen along a shooting or to be one among the crowd.
    But for that person themself to be the actual shooter with gun in hand/on body...

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  10. #25
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    As I believe was mentioned earlier, being outside of the medical profession, I would be extremely reluctant to attempt to aid one whose injuries i inflicted in an adversarious incident. I see the potential for a disasterous outcome as extreme.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  11. #26
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    Something else to consider that I didn't see anybody else bring up is this: If you are forced to shoot a BG in defense of yourself or others and then you decide to aid that BG, It could be construed as a further assault on the BG, and if the BG dies then you might be charged even though the shoot was righteous, because some AG trying to prove a point might say that the further "Aid" you administered resulted in the BG's death, not the original shooting. You shouldn't have a duty to act, if your off duty, so don't act like an EMT/Paramedic, Call 911 and request and Ambulance as well as the police.
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  12. #27
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    I can't find aspecific code reference. BUT, I was told in one of my classes. That you are NOT required to give aid to someone who has perpetrated a crime against you. I know I won't.

  13. #28
    GMS
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    Why would law enforcement upon arrival to the scene of a man on man shooting allow one of the participants (the shooter!) to get near never mind touch and preform any manner of procedure on what is in the immediate a victim?

    What good reasons would they have to do this, rather than say at a minimum detain and sequester the shooter elsewhere for interview if not cuff and contain him within a cruiser for his own security and theirs...Never mind thought toward preservation of what is in the immediate a crime scene?
    Janq,
    I think that you are absolutely right. I cannot see any reason for police to allow the person that discharged the firearm to then render medical care. As I stated earlier, since I have advanced medical training I would render care only to myself and other injured persons, not to the person(s) I perceived as a threat. After arrival of law enforcement, I would expect to be detained, searched, likely cuffed, and then sequestered. This in no way prevents me from asking to be allowed to continue rendering care to other injured persons and, after law enforcement has secured the original threat, rendering care to the bad guy. I will have identified myself as a medic and hope that on scene officers would allow me to render medical care, but fully expect this requested to be denied.

    I agree that persons will no medical training should not attempt to provide any aid.

    doctruptwn

    Something else to consider that I didn't see anybody else bring up is this: If you are forced to shoot a BG in defense of yourself or others and then you decide to aid that BG, It could be construed as a further assault on the BG, and if the BG dies then you might be charged even though the shoot was righteous, because some AG trying to prove a point might say that the further "Aid" you administered resulted in the BG's death, not the original shooting. You shouldn't have a duty to act, if your off duty, so don't act like an EMT/Paramedic, Call 911 and request and Ambulance as well as the police.
    This is a risk that any individual would have to balance against their own personal need to provide care since they have the training and are able. This is also one of the main reasons I would wait until police presence to attempt any care of the original threat, and likely I will not be allowed to provide that care. In regards to preservation of evidence, medical needs always trump absolute preservation of evidence, but every attempt should be made to cause minimal disturbance. I have personally been through many classes pertaining to medical personal conduct around crime scenes and preservation of evidence; most recently through the Michigan State Police.

    I know that in court, my attorney could prove that none of my actions were inconsistent with any law, that I followed rules for preserving evidence, made no attempt to hide any action that I took that day, and provided medical aid that meet the region's standard of care. There are no delusions that proving these points will be easy, but I cannot personally see a reason to fail to provide medical care that is consistent with my training when there is a need for that aid.

  14. #29
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    FF/EMT here... Personally I would render aid as soon as the event ended. I would search and assess the situation and immediately unload and clear the weapon grab the trauma kit in my truck and render aid. 'Till the cops show up of course, then I'd have some explaining to do...

    Also I doubt that scenario would play out exactly like that for me... I would try all avenue's to avoid shooting of course.
    Last edited by ffn8; January 11th, 2011 at 11:10 PM. Reason: forgot to add that im career like the dude below me

  15. #30
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    Unless you are wearing one those EMS brag shirts from Galls, who's going to know you're an EMT? Your first responsibility is to yourself, and I promise the cops are going to get there long before EMS. Unless you are on duty, you have no duty to act. Get your nerves under control and start thinking about what you're going to tell Johnnie Law when he arrives on scene.

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