Any EMT's on here, question.... - Page 3

Any EMT's on here, question....

This is a discussion on Any EMT's on here, question.... within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Lots of great points to consider here. Duty to act- There's no Duty to act where I live, unless you are working for a paid ...

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Thread: Any EMT's on here, question....

  1. #31
    Member Array funwitHK's Avatar
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    Lots of great points to consider here. Duty to act- There's no Duty to act where I live, unless you are working for a paid service; off duty and volunteer EMTs are not obligated to do anything (Good Samaritan law). I think if you acted in self defense, then it would serve in your best interest to look after your interests first; don't be a hero. Months, and years down the road, some attorney is going to do everything he can to spin things, whether you did things right or wrong, or with the "patients" best interest in mind, against you. Keep in mind that your attacker and now switched to "patient" is probably going to look to try to destroy you and your career with a civil lawsuit. How do you feel about the guy who wanted to hurt you, you defended yourself against, and is now suing you for damages? (cause he can't work now, or pain n sufferin', or whatever other crap he makes up). So I would think hard about helping him out, since the odds of him having a change of heart, due to your incredible act of kindness towards him, are very very low. With this in mind, in a perfect world, if I knew for sure that this person would no longer cause me harm or was going to respond to the situation with dignity and take responsibility, the answer would by easy for me- help the guy out with whatever you can do.
    This also brings to mind a story i read somewhere in AZ about a prison guard who defended himself in front of his own home, was an EMT and ended up getting things totally spun against him. I believe the story was linked on this forum, I'll post it if I can find it. He lived through a nightmare of legal woes for 2 yrs or better, before he finally got things sorted out. All kinds of legal help, expert witnesses in his defense, thousands and thousands of bucks he and his family spent defending himself against attackers who lied through their teeth in regular and civil court, they changed their stories multiple times to try and bury the guy. He did everything RIGHT, and still got wrongfully put through the ringer twice by a jerk of a prosecutor.
    Then there's the whole scene safety thing- if his buddies are around, or he's still wanting to hurt you.... and you end up having to defend yourself again... then how are you going to explain it again to the police/attorney's ect....? Just stay away, hold onto the fact that you were afraid for your safety and move towards a safe direction and called 911. Hopefully a police officer/prosecutor/jury will be able to decifer common sense from what is BS.
    funwitHK
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  2. #32
    Member Array LRFireEMS's Avatar
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    I have thought about this many times. While I know Arkansas has no duty to act law, regarding off duty. A lot of things would have to fall in to place before I made my self vulnerable after a shooting. Clearing my weapon and putting my head down to work on a PT doesn't sound like the best route to me. If I had someone with me to watch my back, and felt safe enough to do so then maybe, maybe I would. But honestly I think after a shooting I would keep my weapon and take cover for other possible threats, laying my weapon down only as police arrived.

  3. #33
    VIP Member Array HKinNY's Avatar
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    Here is how I will administer first aid.

    Hello 911 my name is HKinNY and I am at xxxxxxx. I was attacked and I had to defend myself. I had to discharge my firearm. Please tell the responding officers that my firearm is secured. I am wearing a blue shirt and black pants. Please send Medical help right away. (The person who attacked me needs a toe tag. J/k)

    If somebody else was injuried from broken glass, fragment or something else you bet I am going to do everything possible to help them but BG, Nope. They deceided to be a BG not me.

  4. #34
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HKinNY View Post
    If somebody else was injuried from broken glass, fragment or something else you bet I am going to do everything possible to help them but BG, Nope. They deceided to be a BG not me.
    Agreed.

    It is a very bad idea, generally, to attempt to render aide to the one you were forced to shoot. It is far too easy for your actions to be misconstrued and used against you. "You were only rendering aide because you realized you shouldn't have shot him and he presented no threat to you. You were in fact attempting to undo a wrong you created and then you made up this story about being attacked."

    That's how I see rendering aide to the attacker being used against you. That's only one of many examples, but it should suffice.

    Biker

  5. #35
    Member Array RSWORDS's Avatar
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    I think alot of people are reading into what I was looking for too much... The BG is laid out, non responsive, bleeding out in front of you. Weather you render aid or not the law is going to protect you either way, would YOU render aid if you demed the BG safe, could YOU live with yourself if after you rendered the intial threat to you neutral you then let a person die that was no longer a threat.

    Personaly I think I would have to render aid if I determined the BG to be no threat.

    Its odd, I truly feel I could take a life to protect mine and my families, but I also feel I would need to save said life if I was able to safley.

  6. #36
    Member Array RSWORDS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by doctruptwn View Post
    Something else to consider that I didn't see anybody else bring up is this: If you are forced to shoot a BG in defense of yourself or others and then you decide to aid that BG, It could be construed as a further assault on the BG, and if the BG dies then you might be charged even though the shoot was righteous, because some AG trying to prove a point might say that the further "Aid" you administered resulted in the BG's death, not the original shooting. You shouldn't have a duty to act, if your off duty, so don't act like an EMT/Paramedic, Call 911 and request and Ambulance as well as the police.
    At that point the good samaritin law comes into effect,

  7. #37
    Member Array RSWORDS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BikerRN View Post
    Agreed.

    It is a very bad idea, generally, to attempt to render aide to the one you were forced to shoot. It is far too easy for your actions to be misconstrued and used against you. "You were only rendering aide because you realized you shouldn't have shot him and he presented no threat to you. You were in fact attempting to undo a wrong you created and then you made up this story about being attacked."

    That's how I see rendering aide to the attacker being used against you. That's only one of many examples, but it should suffice.

    Biker
    This is exactly the part that make sme second guess my thought that I would feel obligated to render aid...

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by RSWORDS View Post
    This is exactly the part that makes me second guess my thought that I would feel obligated to render aid...
    Personally I have no idea where you got the feeling you are obligated to render aid in the first place. It does not fall under any Duty to Act statute.
    -Bark'n
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  9. #39
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    I will put this as simply as I can:

    If you force me to shoot you the only rendering of aide I will be inclined to give you is a summation of the responding medical authorities.

    In short, I will call 911 for you. The fact that you have a collapsed lung, are unresponsive, and an arterial bleed matters not to me. I will summon help for you, but I'm not helping you. The moment you forced me to shoot you is the moment in time when you became "The Beast". Something I fear and want nothing to do with. I don't go around poking dangerous animals that are sleeping with a sharp stick, and that's what you may be doing. I will not attempt to discover if you are sleeping or dying because you are "The Beast".

    Biker

  10. #40
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    RS

    As a fellow Virginia EMT I can tell you that your duty to act is only there when you are "ON DUTY" and with in your primary coverage area. If you shoot someone while on duty I have a feeling OEMS will want to talk to you as well. That being said better to not help than to get yourself in more trouble. I carry no gloves with me unless I am on duty or heading to the squad. Scene Safety & BSI are failure criteria on every state test i have seen in every part of the country. Scene is not safe there is a man with a gun (you) and I i bet you dont carry BSI.
    Mark

    "The world is filled with violence. Because criminals carry guns, we decent law-abiding citizens should also have guns. Otherwise they will win and the decent people will lose."

    -James Earl Jones

  11. #41
    Member Array Medic218's Avatar
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    I absolutely would not. The scene/bad guy isn't secure until he is in cuffs or a body bag.
    I agree with what a previous user said about him being conscious and bringing a gun in arms length of him. I mean, you just shot him...do you really think there isn't any length he won't go to at this point to get his revenge?
    Morals and ethics go out the window once someone threatens your life or well being.
    Keep him at bay and your situational awareness high until local LE arrives on scene.

    Quote Originally Posted by ffn8 View Post
    immediately unload and clear the weapon
    I don't think so scooter...think about what you just did. You added yourself to the chain of evidence on his weapon. I wouldn't touch crap that didn't belong to me.
    "I don't like repeat offenders, I like DEAD offenders!" -- Ted Nugent
    "Not everyone can be born with common sense, some are born liberals." -- MM218

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattInFla View Post
    Of course, even if you render aid, your actions can be spun to look bad. Failed resuscitation? You delivered sub-par care to "finish him off",etc...

    Matt
    +1... I was waiting for someone to bring this up. Anyway, I'm not sure how I would respond as it’s adding a hypothetical, to a hypothetical. If the person bleeds out and doesn’t make it, you made the crime scene more difficult. If the person makes it and has a lasting impairment, the civil lawyer(s) will have a field day. I guess it would really depend on my own state of mind and circumstances.
    “Monsters are real and so are ghosts. They live inside of us, and sometimes they win.”
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  13. #43
    VIP Member Array paramedic70002's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by me View Post
    RS

    If you shoot someone while on duty I have a feeling OEMS will want to talk to you as well.
    Nope. OEMS tried to interject themselves into the gun debate several years ago but couldn't take the heat. That regulation about no guns on ambulances is unenforceable per Mike Berg, in a letter written to VCDL President Phil Van Cleave. Expect to see it disappear when the new regs are published.

    VCDL Update 12/18/05:

    *************************************************
    > 7. Weapons ban in EMS vehicles invalid and not
    > being enforced
    > *************************************************
    >
    > For those who have been on this list for a while,
    > you might recall
    > our efforts to get a repeal on a regulation that
    > prohibited EMS
    > personnel with CHPs from carrying on ambulances. On
    > January 17th,
    > 2003 I sent out an update stating that we had won.
    >
    > We did, but one part of the law was inadvertently
    > left on the books.
    > A few of our members found this recently and one
    > contacted the Office
    > of Emergency Medical Services (OEMS) about the
    > problem.
    >
    > The member was told that the OEMS was aware of the
    > problem and the
    > regulation was NOT being enforced.
    >
    > That's good but they need to get the regulation
    > completely off the
    > books anyhow!
    >
    > Here is the email from OEMS to our member:
    >
    > From: Michael Berg
    > Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 3:59 PM
    > To: xxx
    > Cc: Gary Brown
    > Subject: Weapons and EMS
    >
    > Dear Mr. xxx,
    >
    > As the Manager for the Regulation and Compliance
    > Division for the
    > Office of Emergency Medical Services, Mr. Brown has
    > asked that I
    > reply to your inquiry. Your question concerns the
    > ability for EMS
    > providers to be able to carry weapons during the
    > course of their
    > duties, especially while on an ambulance or
    > responding to a request
    > for assistance.
    >
    > When the current version of the EMS Regulations were
    > being
    > promulgated (January 15, 2003), there was indeed a
    > proposed
    > regulation disallowing the carrying of weapons by
    > EMS personnel on an
    > ambulance. There was a mounted campaign against such
    > a proposal and
    > indeed the proposed regulation was withdrawn.
    > Unfortunately, in
    > another section of the regulations, specifically, 12
    > VAC 5-31- 700
    > EMS Safety (6) in part states, "Possession of a
    > firearm, weapon, or
    > explosive or incendiary device on any EMS vehicle is
    > prohibited,
    > exceptŠ" This was to have been removed during the
    > revision process
    > and simply was an oversight. We have
    > administratively directed our
    > field staff to not enforce this specific provision
    > of the regulations.
    >
    > I hope this answers your questions and addresses
    > your concerns.
    > Please feel free to call on me should we be of any
    > additional
    > assistance.
    >
    > Michael D. Berg
    > Manager, Regulation and Compliance
    > Virginia Office of EMS
    > 109 Governor Street, Suite UB-55
    > Richmond, Virginia 23219
    > (804)864-7615 (Office)
    > (804)864-7580 (Fax)
    > (800)523-6019 (Virginia only)
    > Michael.Berg@vdh.virginia.gov
    >
    >
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

  14. #44
    Senior Member Array cz75luver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MedicMan218 View Post
    I absolutely would not. The scene/bad guy isn't secure until he is in cuffs or a body bag.
    I agree with what a previous user said about him being conscious and bringing a gun in arms length of him. I mean, you just shot him...do you really think there isn't any length he won't go to at this point to get his revenge?
    Morals and ethics go out the window once someone threatens your life or well being.
    Keep him at bay and your situational awareness high until local LE arrives on scene.


    I don't think so scooter...think about what you just did. You added yourself to the chain of evidence on his weapon. I wouldn't touch crap that didn't belong to me.
    Ditto

  15. #45
    New Member Array Wells961's Avatar
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    My first post! This community is awesome. Anyway on topic...

    EMT here. But it really doesn’t matter because the on-duty EMT is supposed to call base and wait for the cavalry. Assuming you didn’t actually get involved with the shooter with a maglite.

    So the following is what I would have done if I had a CCW on me and was off-duty:
    1. Check to see if he has any more buddies
    2. Call 911, tell the dispatch to send Advanced Life Support (ALS)
    3. Make sure you’re holstered when the cops arrive to avoid confusion
    4. Identify yourself; and then exercise your fifth amendment

    But regardless of whatever you choose to do: DON’T SAY A SINGLE WORD TO THE POLICE. Nothing. Use your fifth amendment.

    See the following link.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI...layer_embedded

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