Any EMT's on here, question....

Any EMT's on here, question....

This is a discussion on Any EMT's on here, question.... within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Something came up at the fire house the other day, a few of us have CHP's and carry daily. The question came up, if you ...

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Thread: Any EMT's on here, question....

  1. #1
    Member Array RSWORDS's Avatar
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    Any EMT's on here, question....

    Something came up at the fire house the other day, a few of us have CHP's and carry daily. The question came up, if you were forced to use your weapon for defense and had a "good shoot" would you after wards administer help to the person you shot. Its a moral question and also can be touched on by "Duty To Act", which is loosely defined anyway, and legally you most likely would not be in violation of duty to act stranger things have happened. Also the EMT code of Ethics says you should render aid....

    Pretty much it goes like this. Your in the parking lot of your favorite store, a guy with a knife comes up and says he is going to kill you, you draw and shoot.

    What next? Do you clear the weapon and administer aid? Do you wait for the cops and then help?

    We all just stared at each other not knowing...


  2. #2
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    Array buckeye .45's Avatar
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    I am not an EMT, however.

    I do know that after we have engaged an enemy force, and the threat has ended, we render aid to those who need it, friend or foe.

    I would say that if the threat has ended, there is nothing wrong with rendering aid, after all, your goal in defending yourself is not to kill another human, it is to effectively end the immediate physical threat to yourself (or others, depending on state law and your mindset).
    Fortes Fortuna Juvat

    Former, USMC 0311, OIF/OEF vet
    NRA Pistol/Rifle/Shotgun/Reloading Instructor, RSO, Ohio CHL Instructor

  3. #3
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    Scene safety always comes first. Can you safely aid this individual? If he's still conscious, is bringing a gun within arm's reach a good idea?

    Do a realistic scene survey and proceed as appears prudent, IMHO.
    Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
    Blame it on Sixto - now that is a viable plan.

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    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    I was an EMT in Maryland many years ago. Things might have changed a bit as far as duty to act goes, but back in the day we were not required to provide aid unless we could do so safely. Remember why he is your patient now. A couple seconds ago he was a deadly threat. Why is he not a threat anymore? Does just being shot mean he no longer wishes to do you harm? Does it mean he is no longer capable of harming you?
    Infowars- Proving David Hannum right on a daily basis

  5. #5
    Member Array RSWORDS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattInFla View Post
    Scene safety always comes first. Can you safely aid this individual? If he's still conscious, is bringing a gun within arm's reach a good idea?

    Do a realistic scene survey and proceed as appears prudent, IMHO.
    This is very important and came up while discussing at the fire house and thinking about posting this on the way home. Somehow I managed to leave it out of my original post. Thanks

    I wonder what kind of spin a lawer could put on it...

  6. #6
    Member Array RSWORDS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    I was an EMT in Maryland many years ago. Things might have changed a bit as far as duty to act goes, but back in the day we were not required to provide aid unless we could do so safely. Remember why he is your patient now. A couple seconds ago he was a deadly threat. Why is he not a threat anymore? Does just being shot mean he no longer wishes to do you harm? Does it mean he is no longer capable of harming you?
    Duty to act is so broad that no one really can say when you do and don't... It's a gray area.

    Say he is laying unconsious on the ground bleeding out quickly...

    This is more of a moral/Ethics question... We all know the mental probkems that arise after a killing, would it be worse for you knowing you were trained to help save said persons life?

  7. #7
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    Array Bark'n's Avatar
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    Duty to act, or no duty to act, you are not required to put your life in jeopardy to render aid.

    In my state, you have no duty to act, if you are off duty.

    You do have a duty to act when you are on duty (whether paid or volunteer) and you receive a call for help. In other words, you can not fail to run an ambulance call which is dispatched because you don't want to run the call at 2 am.

    However duty to act does not require you to risk your life. Remember, scene safety is stressed from day one in EMT school. You are held harmless whether someone dies or not if you do not enter the scene before it has been secured at a crime scene for one example, or a hazardous materials incident as another example. You fulfilled your duty to act by responding to the call, however, safety issues may require you to stage at an appropriate location until the scene is secured. Hazmat is a good example. You are not required to go running into an environment full of cyanide gas no matter how many victims are screaming and gasping their last breath until it is safe for you to do so.

    In the case where you have shot a person who as an immediate threat to your life, the law does not require you to risk approaching a wounded and dangerous felon who moments before tried to kill you. Just because he is down on the ground and bleeding and no longer has a weapon in his hand, does not mean he is any less dangerous. You can legally make the presumption that he may still be of danger and may even have an additional weapon secreted on his person whether it is visible or not.

    Morally, you may want to render aid, if you feel it is safe to do so, however, legally you are not required to do so, and I really don't think it makes any difference if you are in a profession where duty to act may apply to your situation.

    However, once the police has secured the wounded person and ensured they are no longer a threat to you, and the EMS has not arrived on scene as of yet, you may at that point be compelled to render aid to the best of your ability. In my state, that would only apply if I was on duty at the time. If I were off duty, I have no duty to act.

    Your state law regarding duty to act may differ. I can only speak to Missouri law, however I've been a paramedic for over 28 years and an EMT-B primary instructor for 10 years. My next EMT class starts Feb, 7th. I will be teaching the same thing then.
    -Bark'n
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by RSWORDS View Post
    This is very important and came up while discussing at the fire house and thinking about posting this on the way home. Somehow I managed to leave it out of my original post. Thanks

    I wonder what kind of spin a lawer could put on it...
    Of course, even if you render aid, your actions can be spun to look bad. Failed resuscitation? You delivered sub-par care to "finish him off",etc...

    Matt
    Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
    Blame it on Sixto - now that is a viable plan.

  9. #9
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattInFla View Post
    Of course, even if you render aid, your actions can be spun to look bad. Failed resuscitation? You delivered sub-par care to "finish him off",etc...
    Yup...My very first thoughts exactly.

    Same question I'd asked in that thread from Nov. about the guy who shot his three attacking neighbors (two women and one male) only to then begin rendering aid to them as traige to which I was like huh, why?!

    So you shot a mother.
    He's sprawled out on the ground in pain but still very much alive, even mobile if not ambulatory.

    Now what?
    He remains just as angry if not intent as he was a second prior to being shot; Likely even more so.

    What about that pocket knife in his front right pocket that everybody and their grandma these days carrys on body?
    What about their hands wanting to claw, punch, choke or rake your eyes and pull your hair & ears.
    What if they choose to spit or bite at you...And pass on to you their own bodily fluids including blood?
    What if witnesses on scene disagree with your methods or manner of 'assistance'?

    IMHO, no thanks.

    That's the risk the threat takes in being a threat and choosing to bring harm...My way.
    Best I could offer such a person is a call to 911.

    But then I'm not in a career path that in any way expects never mind mandates moralistic code toward the actions of men and it's management.

    - Janq

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    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

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  10. #10
    Member Array Bigkahuna's Avatar
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    As both a former EMT and a Registered Nurse, I can tell you that I would not have to render aid because the BG would be dead. Call the Coroner.

  11. #11
    Senior Member Array stevem174's Avatar
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    I will not be rendering aid until the BG is secured.
    Don't do things you don't want to explain to the Paramedics!

    Stupidity should be painful.

  12. #12
    Member Array arffdog875's Avatar
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    I agree with stevem174, I would not render aid until the BG was secured! If the scene is not safe we DON'T go in...period! In CO we can't carry so we let the LEO's do their job.
    God Bless the troops...especially the snipers!
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  13. #13
    VIP Member Array paramedic70002's Avatar
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    Call 911 and request an ambulance. You are too distraught to render aid and he (and his friends in the shadows) may be dangerous.
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

  14. #14
    Senior Member Array AlexHassin's Avatar
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    I would think it would fall under scene safety. Hence something you have to make a call about when you are there. also itís a sort of dam if you do, dam if you donít with he lawyers. ď he was a trained EMT and he him dieĒ

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexHassin View Post
    ...also it’s a sort of dam if you do, dam if you don’t with the lawyers. “ he was a trained EMT and he him die”
    Really folks, don't get caught up in some philosophical minutia. The law does not require you to render aid to a person who just moments earlier tried to kill you, forcing you to shoot them. I could care less what some ambulance chasing lawyer has to say about my medical training in a court room (he'll just end up looking like an idiot). I'm not required by law to treat the SOB. And furthermore, there is the safety issue of trying to give aid to a potential killer (that's your protection right there). There is no law anywhere which demands you put yourself in danger to save someone.

    No gray area about it. It's black and white. If you feel morally compelled to help your killer, that's one thing, but legally, you do not have to.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

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