With regard to the AZ Shootings

This is a discussion on With regard to the AZ Shootings within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I think that for most people, this is NOT a time or place to draw a firearm unless you are right next to the shooter ...

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Thread: With regard to the AZ Shootings

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    I think that for most people, this is NOT a time or place to draw a firearm unless you are right next to the shooter (if even then). People screaming, running, bumping into each other...and into you too? No safe backstop. Moving target (shooter). A panicked crowd is not a place to draw a gun unless it is in direct self-defense (IMO).

    And I think it's important to note that the 2 people that did stop the shooter were unarmed and still managed to stop him....because of their proximity, courage, and the fact that he was reloading. No gun was needed.

    We here know how fast you can get off 33 or 31 shots....as a responder, to draw, positively acquire target, and make sure no one else gets into your field of fire....poor odds. I think most here would attempt to stop the shooter. I just dont think their gun would be the best tool. The cc'er that also responded seemed to realize this as well. Kudos.
    Last edited by 9MMare; January 11th, 2011 at 02:41 AM.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

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  3. #17
    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    I was given this link.... which contains the FOX News interview, which is much better, and he covers what he did and why much better . I think he did quite well, especially at assessment. I think it also answers the OP's question.

    http://1withabullet.wordpress.com/20...fords-shooter/
    I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts. --- Will Rogers ---
    Chief Justice John Roberts : "I don't see how you can read Heller and not take away from it the notion that the Second Amendment...was extremely important to the framers in their view of what liberty meant."

  4. #18
    VIP Member Array livewire's Avatar
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    If I had, and took, the shot to take an active shooter down, as soon as the threat was neutralized, I'd reholster my weapon. Aren't we all trained to do that (LEOs excepted)?

    Like we always say, when seconds count, the police are minutes away. This situation was resolved before the police got there, and there was nobody shooting back. This guy had time to empty a magazine, have one snatched from his hand, and load a second spare mag that jammed, and THEN had bystanders take him down by brute force, all before any first responders had arrived, and probably before they were even dispatched. If there was a CCW or off duty LEO on site in time to respond, it would have all been over before the dispatched officers got there anyway.

    Maybe the answer in a different scenario would change, but in this particular case, it would most likely be a non-issue.

  5. #19
    Member Array guardmt's Avatar
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    Good point biker, was thinking of what I had on my mind for myself in that situation
    “What we have done for ourselves alone dies with us; what we have done for others and the world remains and is immortal.” Albert Pike

  6. #20
    Senior Member Array Ragin Cajun's Avatar
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    I think Biker put it very well. I would think with that many people, no one saw everything, everyone is trying to process what is going on and some will see you as the shooter because they heard shots and the first gun they saw was in your hands. If your gonna get involved in a situation like that, you better be prepared to deal with that immediatly after. You probably won't be treated very well for awhile. When LE shows up, if you have a gun in your hand or visiable, you best drop your gun and assume the possition because you will be treated as a potential suspect until they can sort things out because they need time to process what is going on and what happened. They don't know who is who and they won't give you the benefit of a doubt.

  7. #21
    Senior Member Array JohnK87's Avatar
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    After the shooting stops, holster or stand on your weapon, make sure 911 is called and they have your description. Then, move very slowly and do EXACTLY what they say.
    ‎An enemy of liberty is no friend of mine. I do not owe respect to anyone who would enslave me by government force, nor is it wise for such a person to expect it. -- Isaiah Amberay

  8. #22
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Biker put it very well, "time worn" loop and all...

    If you were not standing there, looking right at it; with unblinking eyes, when the BG pulled out his gun, you saw the muzzle flash, and saw the first victim recoil from the shot... who's to say that the BG is not actually another carrier, trying to stop someone who shot the representative from behind? 1 victim is down, you are in adrenaline lockdown... the BG is pointing towards another person... is there someone behind that person? Who is he aiming for? Is he really a badguy?

    You have milliseconds to go thru that loop, and you will have to go through it more than once during the conflict...

    It would be very difficult not to intervene, as a fellow citizen, let alone one who was armed and somewhat prepared for such actions. But.....

    If you are able to go to a range where you can shoot across lanes, have a buddy set up 3 targets... he chooses the order in which to shoot them. He draws and fires, at all three targets as fast as he can. With you starting off holstered and secured. Your mission is to shoot the second target, whichever one he shoots, before he does. You cannot draw until he has the first shot lined up.. If you can do that, you might have been able to prevent the second and subsequent shootings... But I submit very few, if any of us here, could have stopped the first. Even the secret service would have been acting after the first shot... Assuming the BG got thru the screening process. (of course, senators and reps don't get that level of protection.)
    All that said....
    It could be worse.
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  9. #23
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Slate published a pretty bad anti-gun article today. Pretty much what I was expecting tho

    "Armed hero nearly shot wrong man"

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41018893/ns/slatecom/
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  10. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by creeker View Post
    I seen an interview yesterday with a witness that was there who was carrying, he did not draw his weapon. I have been looking on the Internet for that interview, but I can't find it.
    His name is Joe Zamudio and there are at least eight or nine separate interviews with him floating around DC.com alone.

    There are probably five different interviews in the following thread. Posts #35 and #40 are two good ones.

    http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...n-%28MERGED%29

    The following thread is one in which the host Ed Schultz is on a rant about anyone who carries guns, and Mr. Joe Zamudio makes him look like a chump.

    http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...wning-A-Pistol
    -Bark'n
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  11. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    Slate published a pretty bad anti-gun article today. Pretty much what I was expecting tho

    "Armed hero nearly shot wrong man"

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41018893/ns/slatecom/
    Slate has had several anti-gun biased pieces on the Arizona Shooting in their online edition in the last couple days... They're like a rabid dog drooling churning out their far left propaganda as fast as they can print it.

    Good thing no one reads their trash!

    Want to see a sheep wet their pants? Go up to a Slate Magazine columnist and whisper Boo in their ear.
    -Bark'n
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  12. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    Slate published a pretty bad anti-gun article today. Pretty much what I was expecting tho

    "Armed hero nearly shot wrong man"

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41018893/ns/slatecom/
    It happens even among trained soldiers. Among civilians, the risk is that much greater.
    Did they bother to do any research before saying this?

    The FACTS are that when you look at the percentages of good shoots vs bad shoots, permit holders do extremely well.

    What if the person holding the gun had been an accomplice? I don't see how anyone can argue with exactly what Joe did. And this by an ordinary, untrained citizen.
    We're all in favor of reducing violent crime. It's just that pro-gunners have a method that is proven effective. Anti-gunners don't.
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    John Moses Browning day is January 24th, 2011

  13. #27
    VIP Member Array Sticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ski View Post
    You're at this shopping centers as this terrible event takes place.
    You're close as the event unfolds and you have the capability to minimize this attack.
    You're able to stop the threat and are justified.
    My question is, as this event is mass chaos and the speed of it, you have stopped the threat but now to primary responders you are ID'd as a shooter. So to the LEO's on here, what is the next move?
    If the threat is stopped, then my weapon is back in my holster as there is no longer any need for it. I am not going to assume a "low ready" posture looking for an accomplice. This is not Hollywood. Odds are real good that if there were an accomplice to this event, they'd be shooting willy nilly as well. First I would secure the BG weapon, probably by standing on it and watching the shooter very carefully, if not restraining his arms regardless of the injuries to make sure the shooter can not attempt to continue.

    Once the authorities arrive I will either yell for them to come over, or if I am ID'd as the possible shooter, I will be very compliant and not making any sudden moves. Either way my hands are empty.

    NOTE - My response to the OP as he posted it. I can not answer what I would have done from the start as I was not there, nor ever been in that type of situation. All manner of conditions have to be met for me to get involved, primarily proximity to the event, and seeing it unfold from the beginning.

    If I am at a place and hear lots of gunshots relatively close, I'm looking for hard cover...now. I am not going to go looking for the source of the shooting. If I am close enough and have eyes on the shooter, and if I have an opportunity to take a shot or three to stop the threat, I may. Hope I never find out.
    Sticks

    Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
    A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
    See also Sheep

  14. #28
    Ex Member Array Kerby's Avatar
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    I have seen advertisements for CCW Badges that you can wear like a LEO around your neck, it may be good to have one to allow a LEO to pause long enough to see you are not the BG, never gave them a second thought untill I read this post and just assumed they were toys for tuff guys wanting to play leo...

  15. #29
    VIP Member Array Sticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerby View Post
    I have seen advertisements for CCW Badges that you can wear like a LEO around your neck, it may be good to have one to allow a LEO to pause long enough to see you are not the BG, never gave them a second thought untill I read this post and just assumed they were toys for tuff guys wanting to play leo...
    They are. Please refer to the stickie in the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions under CHL badges.
    Sticks

    Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
    A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
    See also Sheep

  16. #30
    Distinguished Member Array 21bubba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerby View Post
    I have seen advertisements for CCW Badges that you can wear like a LEO around your neck, it may be good to have one to allow a LEO to pause long enough to see you are not the BG, never gave them a second thought untill I read this post and just assumed they were toys for tuff guys wanting to play leo...
    Run while you can!!!!

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