With regard to the AZ Shootings - Page 3

With regard to the AZ Shootings

This is a discussion on With regard to the AZ Shootings within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Sticks They are. Please refer to the stickie in the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions under CHL badges. DID SO, my original ...

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Thread: With regard to the AZ Shootings

  1. #31
    Ex Member Array Kerby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sticks View Post
    They are. Please refer to the stickie in the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions under CHL badges.
    DID SO, my original thought on the subject stands as is they are a toy that can create more trouble than good in any situation!!!! Thanks STICKS...........


  2. #32
    RKM
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    Holster or drop gun, do as they say and hope there's a good witness.

  3. #33
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    I just watched the movie SALT and the final action scene just before SWAT storms into the bunker is a good example of how a situation could play out with you as the BG...

    Gives me pause...The Duke
    "It's time to nut up or shut up" - Woody Harrelson, "Tallahassee" in "Zombieland"

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    I don't think that LEOs arriving will be any more dangerous that being in a gunfight. If the shooter is down drop your weapon and stand on it.


    Close but no cigar....re-holster, and put your hands UP (standing on your own weapon makes it useless to you unless you have monkey feet...if you re-holster, your weapon is out of your hand, secure from other people's grasp, yet still accessible IF the need for it arizes again). That is what we are trained to do as far back as the academy in an off duty or a plain clothes incident. If we can't for some reason display our badge, or if responding officers come up from behind....they might now know we are a cop, or whatever. But, we recognize their MAY BE an off duty or plain clothes officer there. It WILL get sorted out. Mean time...do what the nice officers tell you.

    Obey all LE commands RIGHT NOW.

    It will be sorted out.

    TELL the officers you are armed and WHERE YOUR GUN IS. Volunteer that info...don't make them search you. Just fess up to where it is...it WILL be sorted out.

    You WILL be handcuffed. Don't sweat it. It WILL happen. Don't get all "Second Ammendmenty" and "Constitution this and that"....remember this would be an EXTREMELY tense moment for YOU and the OFFICERS responding. Now is NOT the time to get on a soap box. This is a traumatic event. Remain calm, do what you're told, and it WILL be sorted out.

    Make sure you take note of witnesses to YOUR actions versus the shooter.

    Make sure you said silly things like.."Stop, drop the weapon!" or even "POLICE! Stop!" (IF some whizz bag claims you were impersonating an officer you can reply..."I was CALLING for the police!").

    In short...what happens in the moments following a critical incident are just as dangerous as the incident itself. Some advocating saying nothing at all....EH EH EH WRONG.

    "Officer, I was in a shooting. That man/woman lying over there had a (insert gun/knife/flame thrower here), and it is laying _________________. He/she shot into the crowd, I was in fear for my life and the lives of the people around him. I want to cooperate totally, but I am very shaken right now and I'd rather not say more until I have had a chance to talk to a lawyer."

  5. #35
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    It "WILL BE SORTED OUT," or not. If only he'd holstered his weapon? (which he could not reasonably do in the midst of the melee.):

    Baltimore Plainclothes Cop Killed

    Drawing your weapon puts you in jeopardy. More so in a defense-of-others situation than in defense of self alone.
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    It "WILL BE SORTED OUT," or not. If only he'd holstered his weapon? (which he could not reasonably do in the midst of the melee.):

    Baltimore Plainclothes Cop Killed

    Drawing your weapon puts you in jeopardy. More so in a defense-of-others situation than in defense of self alone.
    What's your point?

    The tragedy in MD is a whole different scenario from the one the OP posted, which was the one I was answering. The shooting in MD happened while a scuffle was still in progress. Any officers rolling on this call would know an incident was IN PROGRESS, and may already know there is at least one armed subject. It may be a club known to officers in that district for having trouble. There are lots of what ifs and variables. I was answering a question about a singular incident.

    I have a pretty good handle on the way TPD and the PCSD would handle rolling up on a scene where the THREAT HAD SEEMINGLY PASSED and you have a downed subject and a person of interest standing with his hands up and holstered weapon. No professional officer will get out guns a blazin' in that case. I went to the same academy as those officers and worked for both departments during my career. I started with the city, then moved to county for 20 years before I retired. I know how they are trained.

    It will never fail to amaze me how many apples and oranges get compared in a pear orchard.

  7. #37
    VIP Member Array livewire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ Infidel View Post
    It will never fail to amaze me how many apples and oranges get compared in a pear orchard.
    Welcome to the Internet.

    Your previous post though, was interesting. I've always thought the same thing. If a cop shows up DURING the shooting, drop my gun as soon as they arrive on scene. But if they show up after I'm done, I'll have already re-holstered my firearm and will immediately 'hands-up' surrender and ID myself as the good guy, and let them take me into custody if they wish. After all, they just have my word on a very wild scene where someone has been shot and I just admitted to shooting at least one person.

    And no sudden moves :)

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by livewire9880 View Post
    Welcome to the Internet.

    Your previous post though, was interesting. I've always thought the same thing. If a cop shows up DURING the shooting, drop my gun as soon as they arrive on scene. But if they show up after I'm done, I'll have already re-holstered my firearm and will immediately 'hands-up' surrender and ID myself as the good guy, and let them take me into custody if they wish. After all, they just have my word on a very wild scene where someone has been shot and I just admitted to shooting at least one person.

    And no sudden moves :)
    DING DING DING....correct. While a tragedy to be sure, the pc officer who was killed by brother officers can only be described as pure dumb bad horrible rotten luck. Blame can't be laid on the officers who shot, or at the officer who was shot. Training and experience didn't fail either side from the facts available. I can only imagine Baltimore has a vastly larger PD than we have here in the Tucson area, and thus it is less likely that officers will know ALL of the other officers with whom they serve by face. If one were to add rookies, laterals, and neighboring jurisdictions it would grow even more complicated. It was a chain of events fueled by circumstance, bad luck, and it ended in the worst way possible.

    A Non-LE involved active shooter incident played out this way: Subject opens fire at a gathering (who cares where...people are crowded together). Several bystanders are hit, some onlookers run, some are paralyzed by fear. Some don't even recognize what is happening as they believe that life is all lollipops and cotton candy and it MUST be firecrackers. One guy or gal with a CCW and an evil yucky gun (that's for the libs), based upon training (hopefully he or she has aquired some) recognizes a threat, sees the shooter, evaluates the shot (Can he/she make it safely without hurting yet more innocents?) and deals with it. Let's say it is a good center mass pump stopper, and the subject drops like a stone. Good Guy/Gal does a fast reload, scans the target area while still covering the downed subject...seeing the threat has apparently abated, and is down and no longer armed. Goog Guy/Gal moves the subject's weapon away from his grasp, and reholsters HIS own weapon as responding officers roll in. Good Guy/Gay steps back raises his hands and waits for the R/O's instructions, and complies competely without hesitation.

    Does anyone here really think a cop is going to shoot him now?

    It WILL get sorted out.

    Note: It probably took ten times longer to type the last paragraph than it would for that incident from first-shot to holstering the weapon. Think about that....it ain't like TV.

  9. #39
    Ex Member Array JOHNSMITH's Avatar
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    I guess the issue is what if the RO shows up right as you're shooting? All he knows is that shots were fired in a crowd, people are down, and that he sees you shooting some guy carrying a gun. Is that guy the bad guy? A good CCer? A plains clothes cop? A nearby storeowner who tried to shoot at the shooter? Who knows. I guess the critical issue here is whether you notice the RO has arrived, or are you still focused on your target?

    Nonetheless, you're right - staying alert and using common sense is paramount, especially as your hearing and vision is going to be compromised (you'll have tunnel vision) after the adrenaline rush and shots fired.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by livewire9880 View Post
    But if they show up after I'm done, I'll have already re-holstered...
    I'll give a different view just for something to ponder...

    My CCW instructor suggested that you take cover, reload, and wait for the cops. Have someone else call 911, not yourself. Don't say anything until you get your lawyer.

    I'm sure there could be a lot of discussion on this. How does it look to the cops when they arrive on the scene and there is some guy in the bushes with a gun drawn? What if another permit holder comes along. What is he/she going to do?

    Dunno...
    We're all in favor of reducing violent crime. It's just that pro-gunners have a method that is proven effective. Anti-gunners don't.
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  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul34 View Post
    I guess the issue is what if the RO shows up right as you're shooting? All he knows is that shots were fired in a crowd, people are down, and that he sees you shooting some guy carrying a gun. Is that guy the bad guy? A good CCer? A plains clothes cop? A nearby storeowner who tried to shoot at the shooter? Who knows. I guess the critical issue here is whether you notice the RO has arrived, or are you still focused on your target?

    Nonetheless, you're right - staying alert and using common sense is paramount, especially as your hearing and vision is going to be compromised (you'll have tunnel vision) after the adrenaline rush and shots fired.
    Quote Originally Posted by Coder View Post
    I'll give a different view just for something to ponder...

    My CCW instructor suggested that you take cover, reload, and wait for the cops. Have someone else call 911, not yourself. Don't say anything until you get your lawyer.

    I'm sure there could be a lot of discussion on this. How does it look to the cops when they arrive on the scene and there is some guy in the bushes with a gun drawn? What if another permit holder comes along. What is he/she going to do?

    Dunno...
    Interesting perspectives. No matter what, my goal is to see when LE shows up and immediately make their jobs easier. I would say the odds are almost 100% that involves me surrendering myself and my firearm to them immediately. Sure, my arms are probably going to hurt from being twisted around and locked behind my back, might have asphalt burn from being forced into the ground, but it sure beats being shot up by the RO because he thought I was the perp.

    Plus, it might be movie-esque, but there's the possibility that if I don't make my lack of hostile intentions clear, the real perp might escape while I'm trying to convince the LEO I'm on their side or am otherwise distracting them.

  12. #42
    VIP Member Array Thanis's Avatar
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    I would pull and shoot fully aware I may be considered a BG at some point. That is the case with almost any SD shooting. I know only one cc permit holder in RL who was involved in a SD shooting. LE, officer who knew the victim (aka good guy with a cc who pulled during an armed car jacking attempt), yelled at him several times to lower his firearm. LE and cc / GG / gunowner were more then passing acquaintances, see each other weekly.

    GG / victim had tunnel vision, and so did the LE. GG / victim finally lowered firearm, LE stated he had to catch himself at that moment because LE's finger was on trigger in the process to fire.

    For the LE, when he arrived, all he could see was a guy with a gun looking all over the place with gun up, and a dead teen. Only until other LE arrived did 1st responding LE figure out who it was.

    I assume every time you draw your weapon in SD, the chance of being considered a BG by a 3rd party increases, but it is all about playing the cards you are dealt, the situation, and the odds. You put your life at risk when you draw, but most likely your life was already at risk.

    If I had been there, unless I was wetting my pants, any maybe even if I was wetting my pants, I would have drawn and shot if I could have ended the threat.

    Am I a bull in a china shop? Maybe. The only thing in my heart I'm concerned about in a SD situatuion is will I harm an innocent, while intending to take out BG. This is the greatest concern I have in a SD situation. In contrast, what I would suffer with to the grave, is if I did nothing when I could have stopped the threat.
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  13. #43
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    The OODA loop (Observe, Orient, Decide, Act) which Biker refered to in his post is taught in each of our classes. Colonel John Boyd came up with the model, and it is can be used in all manner of problem solving including self defense situtations.

    Lots of folks have already covered what one should do it they have time after being involved in a shooting, whether it is a mass shooting or you and one other guy/gal whatever. If the threat is stopped and there appear to be no other threats, get the gun out of your hand, holster it, stand on it if you wish. I prefer the reholster method myself if possible. Most importantly follow directions of any LEO's once they make themselves known. Point out the bad guy, if it is a mass shooting situation many other people will be pointing him out as well. Again, follow directions of the LEO's that respond, after they disarm you, it is your call as to what you tell them, or don't tell them.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  14. #44
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    With due consideration to circumstances, a fast reholster can be as beneficial as a fast draw.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by BikerRN View Post
    Situations like this are dynamic and by the time you figure out what is happening the need for lethal force may have passed, as evidenced by the CCW Permit holder that was at the scene and helped to restrain the shooter.

    Thrusting yourself in to any lethal confrontation can have very deadly consequences for you. The good guys don't always win, and life isn't like the movies. As for living with yourself, you will live with yourself whether you act or don't. You may not like yourself after the fact, but you will live with yourself, trust me on that. When you see a scene like the one that happened on Saturday you will first have to Observe it, Orientate to it, Decide what to do, and then Act. Does that sound familiar? It's a loop.

    We can all have ideas as to how we will act, but to tell you the truth, we won't know what we will do until we do it. We can't go through life thinking that every shooting is another mass murder, like what happened this past weekend, as we may very well witness a LEO or CCW Permit holder stopping a violent felon. That would be a very poor time to automatically assume that it's another mass shooting and intervene using an approach that, while favorable to a situation like what happened on Saturday, would be very inappropriate in this new scenario.

    Remember, we have to Observe and then Orientate to the situation before we decide what we are going to do and then act. Most people, thankfully, have little to no expirience with such a scene. We can mentally rehearse such things, and I encourage everyone to do so, but seeing it firsthand is different from thinking about it. Also, there are very real cost to intervening, and the stakes are played for keeps where you don't get the opportunity to say, "Oops, I guessed wrong. Can we have a do-over?"

    I would urge everybody to be prepared but to also use caution on jumping in to "save the day". There is very little that seperates a Hero from a Zero. To try and use the death of Christina Taylor Green as a way to interject themselves in to a situation, if they don't know what is really happening is a road that will most likely end in a dead end.

    Biker
    Very good advice, With more and more CCW being issued I wonder if the police are thinking about this in a high stress situation that the guy holding the gun could be a good guy? Just one more thing they've got to be thinking of, Did anybody else notice at the memorial out in Arizona when the presidents was thanking people who helped out who was missing ? I didn't hear him thank the CCW holder that helped disarm the BG ? I wasn't surprised, wonder if He saved the day would He of been ?
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. -- Thomas Jefferson

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