What would you do?

This is a discussion on What would you do? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; This happen not far from me. I've haven't seen the video yet as I'm sending this from my phone. I'll check it out later and ...

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Thread: What would you do?

  1. #1
    Senior Member Array DUNDEM's Avatar
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    What would you do?

    This happen not far from me. I've haven't seen the video yet as I'm sending this from my phone. I'll check it out later and comment.

    http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/bro...,7214565.story

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  3. #2
    Senior Member Array CowboyColby's Avatar
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    It depends if they are letting you me toss them my wallet or if they are searching their victims. Personally I would not allow them to search for fear of findimg my carry weapon. When an opportunity presents itself to draw do so and neautralize the threat. Hopefully done before one of them is sitting on the poor guy on the ground as you don't want to deal with a hostage type situation.

    Oh yeah and call 911 and be a good witness.

  4. #3
    VIP Member Array Old School's Avatar
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    I always sit in the back in the corner in or out of uniform. I am not going down on the floor and I will not be searched. You got a gun or knife I am in fear of my life. I am always carrying. I will prevail.
    "Violence is seldom the answer, but when it is the answer it is the only answer".

    "A nation of sheep breeds a government of wolves".

    http://www.woundedwarriorproject.org/

  5. #4
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    I will not place my well being in the hands of violent criminals. This could have easily turned into an excution style robbery.
    There appears, due to the unorganized actions fo the robbers, to have been multiple opportunities for positive action.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  6. #5
    Member Array joecs1's Avatar
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    The lay out of this place is awful...... the register/sales counter is a straight shot to the front door. Nothing to slow people down!
    S&W M&P 9C
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    "If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck", Author un-known

  7. #6
    3D
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    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    I will not place my well being in the hands of violent criminals. This could have easily turned into an excution style robbery.
    Absolutely agree with both statements above!

    There appears, due to the unorganized actions fo the robbers, to have been multiple opportunities for positive action.
    I bow to your much greater first-hand knowledge and experience, but lacking in that understanding I have to ask where, when and by which of the victims. Honestly, I'm not trying to be a smart a$$. This is getting to be a more common occurrence and I would value some informed idea of how to handle it.
    "It is easier to resist at the beginning than at the end"____Leonardo da Vinci 1452-1519

  8. #7
    VIP Member Array First Sgt's Avatar
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    Just as Old School says...I too always try to positon myself facing the avenues that potential danger might come from. I am NOT going to the floor to be searched, the only way I'm going to the floor is if I have to in discharging my weapon.

    I agree totally with Gloves...this was a situation where I, as a concealed weapon holder, should have/would have already prepared my response both mentally and physically...Now it's a matter of execution of that response. I'm aware "Murphy" could be lurking in the background, but if I did nothing, then "Murphy" would be leading me down a path that no one should have to travel given a choice. JMO
    Sometimes in life you have to stand your ground. It's a hard lesson to learn and even most adults don't get it, but in the end only I can be responsible for my life. If faced with any type of adversity, only I can overcome it. Waiting for someone else to take responsibility is a long fruitless wait.

  9. #8
    3D
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    Senior Member Array 3D's Avatar
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    I have watched the video several times, and used its cumbersome pause feature to stop-start the vid to view the various positions of 'crims' and customers. As soon as the 1st 'crim' enters he's got pistol in woman's face - I'm not attempting that shot!

    2nd criminal floors male customer - saw no chance for him to draw if he was CC; then as was pointed out above if he was CC his gun is gone then and there (and maybe used on him then and there!).

    I CC everyday everywhere i legally can. These perps RUSHED the place.

    I'm right-handed but . . from now on I might have to eat left-handed when in a restaraunt so I can keep my right hand resting on my pistol grip to give me a fighting chance!!!!
    "It is easier to resist at the beginning than at the end"____Leonardo da Vinci 1452-1519

  10. #9
    VIP Member Array jwhite75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old School View Post
    I always sit in the back in the corner in or out of uniform. I am not going down on the floor and I will not be searched. You got a gun or knife I am in fear of my life. I am always carrying. I will prevail.
    This is what wins an armed encounter....the mindset that you will win no matter what.
    Friends don't let friends be MALL NINJAS.


    I am just as nice as anyone lets me be and can be just as mean as anyone makes me. - Quoted from Terryger, New member to our forum.

  11. #10
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    3D,
    A specific response is difficult not having a complete view of the location, but an example from what I saw.
    The individual in the blue shirt at the bottom of the screen. It is apparent from the speed of the action that he was not searched initially, just forced to the floor. One suspect moved to another area of the location doing something. The other susp forced the clerk (?) to the floor and was intent on searching them and not paying attention to other vitims. For the individual in the blue shirt, draw and head shot the near susp from prone at about eight feet. He's done. Move to the end of the counter for cover, or from prone, engage the other susp.
    Just one possible example.
    Part of any solution will be evaluating the time of your best advantage and going from there. That point may well be different for different people.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  12. #11
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    stop action video... hard to determine actual time lapse... my suspiscionis that Guantes is correct in that there was plenty of opportunity. If we're (all the patrons) all gonna "get it" I ain't getting searched. I'm going to try to be proactive.
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  13. #12
    VIP Member Array shockwave's Avatar
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    Lots of strategic problems here. A big one is that there are two perps moving independently. If you're going to do something, you have to deal with both of them. The one mostly on camera frisking the guy down the aisle may have had half an eye on the prone fellow in the foreground, and drawing from that position surreptitiously may have been impossible.

    As a defender in this scenario, you have to weigh the potential outcome here of the perps completing the robbery and leaving, with everybody surviving against the unknown outcome of you shooting, them shooting, and bystanders in the crossfire. No matter how good your aim is, you can't control the criminals' shots.

    The video tells a limited story, but from what I'm seeing, this is one of those worst-case deals and I'm disinclined to pen a chest-beating polemic about how I'm going to win the day by taking out the bad guys. Just because you carry doesn't mean you can obtain a favorable outcome in all cases.
    "It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."

  14. #13
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    Array Bark'n's Avatar
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    Here's the problem. Once they start searching people like they did with several of the customers, and they find your weapon, then things may likely be very bad for you. They may just kill you on the spot figuring you were just waiting for an opportunity to kill them. If I were a bad guy, that thought would definitely cross my mind.

    Since we are only limited to the view on this particular camera it's very hard to say how I would have responded if I were there and had the ability to see the entire situation play out. But it does seem there are plenty of opportunities to engage these bad guys who appear to be pretty disorganized.

    If I buy something to eat at places like this, I usually don't stay and eat inside such establishments even if they do have tables for customers. If I do, I'll always pick a table way back in the corner, but mainly I just leave and eat in my car. By their very nature, they are "quick stops," and that's exactly what I do. Get in and get out.

    As a general rule, if stuck in an event like this, my actions are dictated as the events unfold before me. They are too dynamic to give cut and dry responses to readers in a forum like this. Way too many variables. However, a couple things I will point out. If they start searching people, I do not want them to discover my concealed gun, therefore I may be forced to act precipitously. Second, I'm not going to be herded into a back room or walk-in cooler and will likely have to respond. Just about everything else, I'll have to see what happens as the events unfold.

    I train frequently under stress. We did this quite a bit when I was on our county swat team. Running and doing push ups to get your heart rate up and then shoot. I'm pretty confident at the distance of 20 or so feet, with my blood pumping I could hit the guy who was sitting on top of the customer and hit him in the head and or neck. He was pretty static and stationary during most of the robbery. It would all depend on the location of the other guy as to who to engage first.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  15. #14
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Shockwave (quote)
    "The video tells a limited story, but from what I'm seeing, this is one of those worst-case deals and I'm disinclined to pen a chest-beating polemic about how I'm going to win the day by taking out the bad guys. Just because you carry doesn't mean you can obtain a favorable outcome in all cases."

    If that is your impression of an explaination of a possible solution, based on available information, I would be interested in how you reached that conclusion.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  16. #15
    VIP Member Array shockwave's Avatar
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    As a general rule, if stuck in an event like this, my actions are dictated as the events unfold before me. They are too dynamic to give cut and dry responses to readers in a forum like this.
    Absolute agreement here. And, as you note, once they start frisking people, it gets very dicey for the CCW owner. Because if they find it, a pistol-whipping is going to be de rigueur.

    If that is your impression of an explaination of a possible solution, based on available information, I would be interested in how you reached that conclusion.
    Wasn't talking about your post - your analysis in #10 above is a possibility. If you ever get caught up in something like this, your level of training, situational awareness, and inner resolve will all be put to the extreme test.

    This is one of the downsides to carrying - a situation like this one becomes much more intense and dangerous. On the upside, if they start herding people into the back, you have an option where the unarmed citizen has less latitude.

    Since you took a whack at the problem, here's a thought from me: As the perps rush in and start to control the situation, there's a brief window where you could try and take up a defensive position at the end of an aisle, and draw from cover. With the other customers proned out, you might have some clear lines of fire available. Whatever you elect to do from there, try to end it in 2 seconds.
    "It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."

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