Training For The Unexpected.. YOU CAN'T
This is a discussion on Training For The Unexpected.. YOU CAN'T within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Training for the unknown-unexpected is impossible, because its unexpected and unknown! What does happen is, you default to your training... what ever it may be, ...
January 29th, 2011 08:01 AM
Training For The Unexpected.. YOU CAN'T
Training for the unknown-unexpected is impossible, because its unexpected and unknown! What does happen is, you default to your training... what ever it may be, and/or your survival instincts. We train for the expected, the alert situations and high percentage confrontational situations we're exposed to.
You'll see in this video of the detroit headquarters shooting two things, one is the defense reaction, which is moving-cover, and the second is laying down repeated rounds (Bad Guy).
Having a fast draw/reaching for your weapon is great, if your in a obvious confrontation, but when something happens unexpected you need to MOVE and COVER. From an offensive stand if your laying down fire while retreating to cover or if no immediate cover is available, repeated fire at your target can save your life by allowing your target NOT to have a clear and unchallenged shot.
Police officers who are trained in this tactic when they might be exposed in a traffic stop or exposed while taking on fire in a situation, the response of repeated fire at their target may save their life, hi-capacity magazine/weapons (G19) for example can lay down repeated rounds before needing to reload.
The natural instinct for anyone looking at a exploding gun shooting/pointed at them... is to DUCK/RETREAT/COVER.
check out the video in this trauma situation, very lucky no officers were killed, GOD was with them. You can't be ready everywhere 24/7/364.
January 29th, 2011 08:38 AM
What is that sound one hears at about 0:55 just before the shooting begins?
January 29th, 2011 08:44 AM
That's ridiculous. Of course you can train for the unexpected. Go back over the literature - people have been doing it for centuries.
Training for the unknown-unexpected is impossible, because its unexpected and unknown!
The problem is as old as combat itself: drill and practice routines until they become second nature, get stuck when presented with a situation outside your training.
So to deal with that, training methods evolved that allow for both practice of skills and strategic problem solving. You really need to study both to round out your training.
Per the video, once again we see that the PGO shotgun isn't a very accurate weapon. That guy would have wrought more havoc if he'd had a full stock.
"It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."
January 29th, 2011 10:21 AM
There are several basic routines that you can train/drill/practice on that will serve as a "generic" solution to any given problem. It may not be the best solution, but it will work or provide time and opportunity to gain an advantage or solve the problem.
Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
See also Sheep
January 29th, 2011 12:24 PM
I must respectfully disagree with the OP. Our "Force on Force" training is a prime example of training for the unexpected. Our active shooter drills and hostage situations are unknown to the participants until the event unfolds. Yes every situation is different in it's own way in training and on the street however you will revert back to your training when the flag goes up so hopefully you have trained under stressful conditions so you will react in the manner that will have you prevail in the encounter.
January 29th, 2011 12:47 PM
Shockwave and Old School are both opinions I strongly agree with here. Of course we cannot anticipate every detail of every situation, but the point of PROPER trainig is to expose ourselves to as wide a variety of situations as possible. This develops critical thinking patterns that enhance our ability to meet unexpected threats in a systematic way allowing use of all our senses and muscle memory to work in sync with our brain housing group.
All disciplines work basically the same way.
January 29th, 2011 01:04 PM
I would also have to disagree.
It depends on which end of the horse you are looking at.
If you look at it from the perspective of the infinite number of possibile situations one might be confronted by, it might seem overwhelming.
If you look at it from the perspective of the possible alternative actions that you might employ, in any particular situation, given the circucmstances, your training, tools and experience, they are finite and manageable.
Then it becomes a matter of selecting and employing the actions that will most likely provide the most satisfactory outcome.
"I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".
January 29th, 2011 06:52 PM
The Human Startle Reflex.
Keep in mind that all normal human beings have an ingrained Startle Reflex that cannot be gotten rid of when instantly/suddenly being confronted with the truly totally unexpected.
You are going to lose a full second or more when you'll not be able to react effectively.
If you are subliminally expecting to be "startle tested" at some future near point in time - your Startle Response will not be identical to the completely unexpected "total surprise" Startle Response.
So if you go into a training session to learn how to better cope and deal with the human startle reaction...you really are not even though you believe that you are learning how to handle it better. It cannot be unlearned but, if you are already on a higher alert than normal it is (of course) minimized.
"although its intensity may be reduced by repetition or anticipation."
My opinion is that the intensity & duration of the human startle reaction can be reduced for a period of time but, when the human is away from that training scenario and in a totally different environment and when the stimulus is completely unanticipated.....it shows up again like a bad penny.
Startle reaction, also called Startle Pattern, an extremely rapid psycho-physiological response of an organism to a sudden and unexpected stimulus such as a loud sound or a blinding flash of light.
In human beings it is characterized by involuntary bending of the limbs and a spasmodic avoidance movement of the head.
Musculature returns to normal in less than one second, although elevations in heart rate, respiration, and skin conductance persist slightly longer.
The startle pattern occurs in all normal humans and all mammals when tested in a relatively uniform manner.
The pattern is resistant to extinction or modification by learning, although its intensity may be reduced by repetition or anticipation.
The response seems to be an instinctive mechanism for self-defense and, in humans, is probably the initiating element of more general emotional reactions, both motor expressions and conscious experiences.
The startle reaction—known as the Moro, or Moro embrace, reflex in children—is particularly conspicuous in infants up to three or four months old.
Feel free to agree or disagree - comments welcome.
January 29th, 2011 07:03 PM
Exactly... What training technics are being applied here... What shooting stance is being applied here... What's being applied is moving, cover, point shooting, and crapping your pants. Anyone who thinks you can train for this is RIDICULOUS and doesn't know what their talking about and never had close combat training. There's no training techniques here... Look at the video... It's pure survival mode... Natural instinct to move, cover, return fire, and look at the good guys shooting without looking. You can not train for this, look at the video, it's pure panic and survival, look at the good guys shooting with their heads down, no aiming while running for cover.
Originally Posted by glockman10mm
You should reach a point in your training when a stance is Irrelevant...unless you target shoot for competition. Close quarters...combat shooting are great until the unexpected happens police station shooting is unexpected, a mall shooting is expected, parking lot situations are expected, someone crashes down your door in your home is unexpected. We train for the expected and known situations, we can not train for the unexpected and unknown.
How many people train for when their sitting in their dentist office waiting room and someone opens the door and starts shooting, probably then same amount of people who train for a target entering a police station filled with open carry people...police officers.
Look the video full screen and check out the officer throwing papers in the air to distract the aim of the shooter... That's not training that's survival.
January 29th, 2011 08:53 PM
First of all this is why most police stations in California don't have their stations set up like this one in Detroit. If you go into any L.A. County or Riverside County station you will find bullet proof windows that seperate sheriff's personnel from the lobby area where citizens can enter the station.
Secondly nobody looked at the guy when he entered the station......everyone was too busy doing something so the suspect got the jump on everyone.
I think that situation is a perfect reason why combat shooting training is very important. I also believe that you can prepare for these types of situations......just takes the right kind of realistic training.
"You fight the way you Train"
January 29th, 2011 11:32 PM
I could not get any video but the advertisements to play for me per the OPs link, so here is a second that works very clearly.
Beside that I too like the others very much agree with Shockwave and Old School.
I won't state more on that as I have nothing to add that hasn't already been provided.
As well I agree with black knife too.
My own town police station is setup as he described and for good reason, even as we are based in a rural area.
The threat very much got the jump on everyone as they basically had been trained to _ignore_ walkers in and pay them no mind, as though being cops in a cop house offered them a force field against trouble.
"Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy
"A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing
January 30th, 2011 08:05 AM
"Althrough I paracticed diligently and frequently, at the time I was unaware of how my subconscious mind was committing all I was learning to memory like some super computer. As a result, during the gunfight, when my conscious mind went haywire with stress, the infallible subconscious came forth to save my skin".
Note: During his 6 years with the NYPD Stakeout Squad Cirillo was in 17 gunfights with armed robbers. He was never injured in any of them.
January 30th, 2011 08:32 AM
Look. You can train for the unexpected and many schools and disciplines stress this reality as a fundamental element of self defense.
We train for the expected and known situations, we can not train for the unexpected and unknown.
Still, I acknowledge a truth of your comment: You can't prepare for everything.
For example: A person who means me harm can set up a sniper nest 500 yards from my home and lay in wait for me, targeting my garage door and zeroing in, focused on the moment I leave my house to get the newspaper in the driveway. When that door opens, he'll know that I'm going to come out and walk down the driveway to fetch the paper. Bang! He's got me.
Can't defend against that.
Same goes for any kind of assassin who studies my routines and plans a sneak attack. If that happens, well, sorry.
In my school, we train to react to incoming energy. So sometimes we start with you being sucker-punched, or you start blindfolded, or your starting position is on the ground with a dude on your back whaling punches on you. Start from there.
If you do that sort of thing enough times, you'll start to get very reactive, and when the unexpected arises, you'll have some ability to move and respond automatically to an unfolding situation. Sure, some maniac with a PGO shotgun comes blasting in - you hit the floor and deal from that hand. Par for the course.
"It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."
January 30th, 2011 01:35 PM
Originally Posted by Old School
nice Cirillo quote.
The United States Constitution © 1791. All Rights Reserved.
"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it."
- Frederic Bastiat
January 30th, 2011 01:48 PM
To bad the cop crawls away behind the counter when the BG jumps the desk and lands on the floor. He would have been in prefect position to unload on him while the BG is down trying to stand back up.
By ppkheat in forum Carry & Defensive Scenarios
Last Post: May 3rd, 2010, 11:44 PM
By 9MMare in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
Last Post: January 9th, 2010, 11:48 AM
By mrreynolds in forum In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly
Last Post: December 10th, 2008, 05:30 PM
By pfcslr in forum General Firearm Discussion
Last Post: August 7th, 2008, 02:08 PM
By Tom357 in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
Last Post: March 29th, 2006, 04:57 PM
Search tags for this page
gunsite startle response
jim cirillo, pgo shotgun
Click on a term to search for related topics.