Confronted and threatened, but no visible weapon.

Confronted and threatened, but no visible weapon.

This is a discussion on Confronted and threatened, but no visible weapon. within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I'm pretty sure this has been addressed many times but I'm new to this forum and haven't found this exact scenario. This happened to me ...

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  1. #1
    New Member Array sw angel's Avatar
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    Confronted and threatened, but no visible weapon.

    I'm pretty sure this has been addressed many times but I'm new to this forum and haven't found this exact scenario. This happened to me about 25 years ago, fortunately there was no physical injury to me but I was relieved of about $40 to $60 bucks. Also, I do not carry, but I'm curious what all of you would do.

    Basically what happened was that I was alone at night on a car lot, on a rather busy street but set back from the street, when I noticed 2 guys approaching along the sidewalk and walking somewhat briskly. My concern level immediately skyrocketed when one continued straight and the other started heading in my direction. I turned around and started to walk the opposite way but he got in front of me. By the way, I had a leg injury at the time and was using a cane. So I had no business being there, but there I was.

    Dude in front of me had his hand in the pocket of his windbreaker and said something along the lines of "I have a gun and will use it if you don't do what I tell you?" For one-half second I considered whacking him with my cane, but not a good option with a bum leg. Then my only concern was that I really didn't want him to take my whole wallet. So, I pulled out my wallet and when he grabbed for it I pulled it away, and told him "don't worry you'll get your money". Then I open the wallet so he could see that he was getting everything that was in there. The transaction was complete and he took off, leaving me quite shaken.

    I'm guessing 90% of you would immediately shoot. But I never actually saw a weapon and I'm not sure he had one. He was just confronting an easy mark.

    So what are the laws and what would you do?

    Thanks


  2. #2
    Distinguished Member Array INccwchris's Avatar
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    the laws only say when a reasonable person would be in fear for my life, someone puts a finger in a jacket, makes it look like a gun, says i have a gun, and i don't have the ability to prove to myself otherwise at the time, i am in fear for my life, i toss them my wallet and draw to fire
    "The value you put on the lost will be determined by the sacrifice you are willing to make to seek them until they are found."

  3. #3
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    You were the victim of an Robbery (211 PC, a felony), accompished through fear. Being essentially unarmed and with a physical infirmity, your choices were quite limited.
    IF a criminal tells me he has a weapon, I believe him and act accordingly.

    Justifiable Homicide CPC 197

    197. Homicide is also justifiable when committed by any person in
    any of the following cases:
    1. When resisting any attempt to murder any person, or to commit a
    felony, or to do some great bodily injury upon any person; or,
    2. When committed in defense of habitation, property, or person,
    against one who manifestly intends or endeavors, by violence or
    surprise, to commit a felony, or against one who manifestly intends
    and endeavors, in a violent, riotous or tumultuous manner, to enter
    the habitation of another for the purpose of offering violence to any
    person therein; or,
    3. When committed in the lawful defense of such person, or of a
    wife or husband, parent, child, master, mistress, or servant of such
    person, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design to
    commit a felony or to do some great bodily injury, and imminent
    danger of such design being accomplished; but such person, or the
    person in whose behalf the defense was made, if he was the assailant
    or engaged in mutual combat, must really and in good faith have
    endeavored to decline any further struggle before the homicide was
    committed; or,
    4. When necessarily committed in attempting, by lawful ways and
    means, to apprehend any person for any felony committed, or in
    lawfully suppressing any riot, or in lawfully keeping and preserving
    the peace.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  4. #4
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    Personally, I would avoid the situation that you were in (not going to be alone at night in a potentially dangerous place). The most important part of self defense to me is not putting myself in a positon to have to use a firearm. You can't place yourself in a comprimising postion. That being said, I think you would have to be there to make that call.

  5. #5
    Member Array LeftofMars's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by matdicdad View Post
    Personally, I would avoid the situation that you were in (not going to be alone at night in a potentially dangerous place). The most important part of self defense to me is not putting myself in a positon to have to use a firearm. You can't place yourself in a comprimising postion. That being said, I think you would have to be there to make that call.
    I agree with this 100% Look at and think about any situation you intend to go into.
    "Someone ever tries to kill you, you try to kill 'em right back."
    Captain Malcom Reynolds "Firefly"

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by sw angel View Post
    ... Also, I do not carry, but I'm curious what all of you would do...

    ...I'm guessing 90% of you would immediately shoot. But I never actually saw a weapon and I'm not sure he had one. He was just confronting an easy mark.

    So what are the laws and what would you do?

    Thanks
    It sounds like you already have it in your head what people on the forum would do.

    It is possible for someone to commit a violent crime without a weapon, or without physically harming another. That is why in a lot of jurisdictions there is a difference between assault and battery. Assault is the threat of force, with the perceived ability to back it up. Battery is following through on that threat. That differs depending on where you are, but that is the basis of it.

    You were robbed, which is also a violent crime.

    What I would do would depend on a lot of factors, not included in the story, and also on the laws of the place I was in.
    Fortes Fortuna Juvat

    Former, USMC 0311, OIF/OEF vet
    NRA Pistol/Rifle/Shotgun/Reloading Instructor, RSO, Ohio CHL Instructor

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by sw angel View Post

    I'm guessing 90% of you would immediately shoot. But I never actually saw a weapon and I'm not sure he had one. He was just confronting an easy mark.

    So what are the laws and what would you do?

    Thanks
    The real question here isn't whether he had or didn't have a weapon. The question is are you willing to risk every tomorrow on the chance he is lying.
    It is surely true that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. Nor can you make them grateful for your efforts.

  8. #8
    Ex Member Array hamlet's Avatar
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    You would be justified treating this as threat on your life - and an imminent one in my view. The problem: if you had shot him and he had no gun- and say the other one takes off - it's your story and a dead man lying on the street. Not saying you can consider that kind of thing when you're life is at stake, but the aftermath could be dicey. Nevertheless - when it's time, it's time.

  9. #9
    MJK
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    Senior Member Array MJK's Avatar
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    If I perceive an imminent, proximate threat to my life I'm justified to employ lethal force to stop the attack. In this instance it would seem all conditions were satisfied to draw and fire until the threat was stopped. If, after the event, it turns out the guy was bluffing then it's an unfortunate tragedy, but you have no way of knowing that ahead of time.

    Make one change to this scenario and tell us how you'd react. Instead of the BG verbally stating he has a gun and using his finger in a jacket pocket to simulate the weapon, he pulls a Glock 17 and points it at you. This time, though, the BG is bluffing because his weapon is not loaded.

    What would you do?

  10. #10
    VIP Member Array Sticks's Avatar
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    To the OP,

    25 years ago, that was the norm for a mugging, or as you called it a "transaction". Rare for a victim to get injured, compliance with the BGs terms actually worked. Now days, if you had a free repeater, it probably would have been a real gun or other weapon, not in his pocket, and odds are you would have been severely injured or worse just for jerking your wallet back in addition to the partner would not have kept walking away.

    You already have the SA, being alert is the first step, keep it up.

    Quote Originally Posted by MJK View Post
    If I perceive an imminent, proximate threat to my life I'm justified to employ lethal force to stop the attack. In this instance it would seem all conditions were satisfied to draw and fire until the threat was stopped. If, after the event, it turns out the guy was bluffing then it's an unfortunate tragedy, but you have no way of knowing that ahead of time.

    Make one change to this scenario and tell us how you'd react. Instead of the BG verbally stating he has a gun and using his finger in a jacket pocket to simulate the weapon, he pulls a Glock 17 and points it at you. This time, though, the BG is bluffing because his weapon is not loaded.

    What would you do?
    First rule of firearms...the gun is always loaded.

    Whatever I need to do to get home safe. Real gun/unloaded (yeah, I'm going to know the status of the weapon ), simulated gun, toy gun or water pistol used in a confrontation in a poorly lit parking lot at dark...JAM has been met if I have belief at the time that the weapon is real.
    Sticks

    Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
    A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
    See also Sheep

  11. #11
    Member Array AZ Infidel's Avatar
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    IF...I say again...IF I "reasonably" believed he had a weapon I would toss him the cash I carry in my left front pocket. It is a five dollar bill banded around five one dollar bills. The bills all together give it some heft for tossing. When he bends over to retrieve it, thinking he has won...my Glock .40 is pointed at his chest and he has the option of leaving with the ten bucks or catching a few bucks worth of 180gr JHP's. It is really his choice at that point, not mine.

    If he takes the choice to "take the money and run"...SUPER...no one got hurt, and the only paperwork I will be doing is covering my butt and getting a report on file. My decision to protect myself and my loved ones was made years ago, so IF he takes the choice of NOT "taking the money and running"...his night will end with EMTS and a trip via ambulance to the trauma center or the morgue. His choice, not mine.

    I'd never have employed this tactic in my capacity as an officer, however, since retiring my badge...it is worth ten bucks NOT to have to kill someone. It is a hard enough thing to do having done it and survived....the wringer you go through it a cold blooded ##### no matter how much support you get from brother officers and your family. As a civilian without that mantle of protection and authority of a department, you are, literally on your own.

    Tossing the money would also look fantastic in court. You did all you could to avoid lethal force. You complied with his demand. That HE chose to escalate the force neccessary to end the encounter safely, YOU have acted in a very reasonable (there's that word again) manner, and were in a very real fear of death or grave bodily harm.

    In Arizona, there is no duty to retreat...one may stand one's ground in any place one is legally allowed to be. HOWEVER, if you show you TRIED to retreat or comply and were then forced to employ deadly force, again, you have acted in a reasonable manner.

    Also...SELF DEFENSE is a positive defense here. In other words, you do NOT have to PROVE self defense. They have to PROVE you did NOT act in self defense.

    Arizona also has a new DEFENSIVE DISPLAY law which allows you to show, or say you are armed to avoid a physical attack or other crime against you. You can't draw your gun willy nilly over stupid stuff...but if a reasonable person (again that word) would believe an assault were imminent...you could uncover your weapon with your hand ready to draw...and tell them to STOP and that you are armed and ready to defend yourself.

    So...anyway. I am sorry you don't live in a free state and can't carry. But the above is what I would do. I hope it helped and didn't confuse you more.

  12. #12
    Distinguished Member Array kelcarry's Avatar
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    Hey Guantes: This gentleman was not a victim of a robbery while these guys were circling around him in some fashion. By the time they had their say, they were now on top of him and were now in the process of committing a robbery. Assuming you did all you could to get away from the situation (in this case he is not a young stallion who could run away--he has a cane) and they now were close in on you, what, based on your experience can you do at this point. Even before they are in close on you, what can you do to eliminate the problem. Let's leave out not being in that area at night. Appreciate you always experienced answers.

  13. #13
    Ex Member Array MadMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    The real question here isn't whether he had or didn't have a weapon. The question is are you willing to risk every tomorrow on the chance he is lying.
    +1

    I'm not one of your supposed 90% in the situation as described. If he does have a gun, he has the drop on you. If he's serious about the gun and you reach for your weapon, he would just shoot you before your sidearm cleared leather. You did fine. Buy time. Give him your money. Everyone lives. I have no love lost for the dirtbags, but unless you had already drawn when you saw them approach, you'd best hand over what they want.

  14. #14
    Ex Member Array MadMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MJK View Post
    Make one change to this scenario and tell us how you'd react. Instead of the BG verbally stating he has a gun and using his finger in a jacket pocket to simulate the weapon, he pulls a Glock 17 and points it at you. This time, though, the BG is bluffing because his weapon is not loaded.
    Well, if he's got a Glock 17 pointed at my chest, and I have yet to even reach for my ccw, I'd have to play it out some more, dont' you think? As everyone says, it's a threat of death by gun, you are justified. However, you have to play the odds. What are you willing to bet you can get your weapon cleared, aimed, and employed before he decides YOU are serious?

  15. #15
    Distinguished Member Array 21bubba's Avatar
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    Only because it needs to be posted. "Call 911 and be a good witness".

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