Do you have to fight? - Page 11

Do you have to fight?

This is a discussion on Do you have to fight? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; What does the letter of the law allow in your State? In Texas: PENAL CODE**CHAPTER 9. JUSTIFICATION EXCLUDING CRIMINAL RESPONSIBILITY Sec. 9.04. THREATS AS JUSTIFIABLE ...

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  1. #151
    TVJ
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    What does the letter of the law allow in your State?

    In Texas: PENAL CODE**CHAPTER 9. JUSTIFICATION EXCLUDING CRIMINAL RESPONSIBILITY

    Sec. 9.04. THREATS AS JUSTIFIABLE FORCE. The threat of force is justified when the use of force is justified by this chapter. For purposes of this section, a threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by the production of a weapon or otherwise, as long as the actor's purpose is limited to creating an apprehension that he will use deadly force if necessary, does not constitute the use of deadly force.

    and

    Sec. 9.31. SELF-DEFENSE. (a) Except as provided in Subsection (b), a person is justified in using force against another when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to protect the actor against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful force.


    So angry guy wants a fight, fails to back down, and presses the issue. I instigate nothing and attempt to de-escalate through words, mannerisms.

    I draw and index on him. Yell: Back Off!

    My action threatens the use of deadly force if he continues but I don't shoot him at this point.

    Under Texas law, indexing on him - defensively in a "you're move" posture - is a use of force, not lethal force.

    So I respond to his use of force with my own use of force. Its a higher level of force which I want tactically to neutralize his level of force. I always want a legal and extremely lopsided self defense response in my favor. The more legal and lopsided the better. I intend to win - legally - as fast as possible. A win is perp stopping immediately either on his own or through my use of my hardware.

    If he stays where he's at, backs off, and/or does the name calling monkey dance..blah blah blah...then I remain indexed looking at him through my frontsight until he retreats or police arrive. Hopefully the idiot has an immediate come to Jesus moment as I really want him to Stand Down Now and go away.

    If he closes space..reaches for me/my gun, he gets shot to the ground immediately until he is no longer a threat.

    Seeing my Glock and continuing his advance tells me he doesn't care I have a gun. This makes him extremely dangerous and "unreasonable" at the same time. It is reasonable for me to think the worst from someone who advances on me seeing the biz end of my Glock/this disparity of force against him.

    He backs down, I met his force with force, and I go home safe. No fight. I call PD to report him/the situation.

    He attacks/closes space/reaches, I neutralize him fearing for my life that a crazy person who had my gun pointed at him in self defense to get him to stop STILL advanced threatingly on me. I am reasonable to fear grave bodily harm from him. I act in defense of my life.

    Hands on occurs only to create space to access tools - edged or Glock - and start the above process.
    The United States Constitution © 1791. All Rights Reserved.

    "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it."
    - Frederic Bastiat


  2. #152
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    There is no obvious disparity of force (as per the OP). Reaching for your gun, might mean he wants to use it against you... Might be self defense. Otherwise... let's say he's just moving towards you saying... "What are you gonna do, shoot me? C'mon chicken gizzard, fight like a man, quit hiding behind your gunzez.."
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    There is no obvious disparity of force (as per the OP). Reaching for your gun, might mean he wants to use it against you... Might be self defense. Otherwise... let's say he's just moving towards you saying... "What are you gonna do, shoot me? C'mon chicken gizzard, fight like a man, quit hiding behind your gunzez.."
    The reaching for my gun part...might be self defense...may use it against me..makes no sense to me.

    My gun is out because this guy is extremely belligerent to me, scares me, and may turn this incident into a life threatening situation for me. His actual purpose for reaching for my gun is superseded by what I reasonably believe he attempts to do. I reasonably believe he is trying to get my gun to kill me now. He was already looking for the fight. Legally, he already hung himself out there. He's the belligerent one.

    The OP is an intransigent angry individual hell bent on a hands on fight who just wont back down after I attempt to deescalate the situation through word and space. Texas law allows me to use force to repel unlawful force. Perp uses verbal force so far and physical force to close distance and menace.

    If I display my weapon, as long as my purpose is limited to creating an apprehension that I will use deadly force if necessary, the indexing of my Glock on perp does not constitute the use of deadly force.

    Its just force on force at this point. If he closes space/reaches for my gun, digs his hand in his pocket/reaches around behind his back with one hand (attempts to escalate his force over and above my weapon's force), then I create immediate and overwhelming lethal force on his force - moving off the X (unless my wife/daughter is/are behind me, then its stand and deliver.)

    If he says are you going to shoot me, I may say in command voice "BACK OFF!"

    Second warning. He shows even more unreasonableness now if he attacks/closes space.

    Same deal for any other Monkey Dance garbage he spouts. Him spouting may be his way of saving face and "deescalating". Or he's (re)building his confidence after the Glock surprise. I have no way to know just with words. So I index but avoid the trigger on words alone. Legally I cannot shoot on words alone anyways.

    Note: In Texas I can stand my ground. There is zero duty to retreat written in the law. There is also zero duty to say "Back off, Stand down...etc."



    The legal key is that I clearly show I went to reasonable lengths to avoid shooting him and that I was within my legal right to index on him to repel his illegal use of force in my attempt to de-escalate the situation.

    This is what I want personally, anyways. I really don't want to shoot the jerk.

    His growing unreasonableness keeps piling on more support for my decision to index and potentially neutralize him as a threat.



    My tactical intention is to avoid hands-on: Either he backs down physically (space) or I neutralize him as a threat in defense of my life.

    Hands on means he ambushed me before I could start the above process.

    Hands on means I do whatever it takes to get him off me, retain my Glock/edge weapon(s), create space, and begin the above process - possibly without any warning.
    The United States Constitution © 1791. All Rights Reserved.

    "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it."
    - Frederic Bastiat

  4. #154
    Senior Member Array xsigma40cal's Avatar
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    @ oachas...."Well, the human forehead is an (almost perfect) arch, one of the strongest natural designs. I'm aiming for his face plate with mine."

    So what your saying is that instead of head butting the guy, you'd kiss him????? that might scare him away.

  5. #155
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Ha Ha. No, the arch of the forehead to the center of the face plate. the nose. Would probably break nose and occular bone structure.
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  6. #156
    VIP Member Array TedBeau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGiant View Post
    If he continues to escalate the situation after several repeated attempts to defuse it then he will get shot I don't care what size he is. If they are close enough to put hands on you then deadly force is authorized IMHO. How do I know he just wants to bloody my nose and not stomp me when I I get knocked out by a lucky punch, may be he is trained in martial arts? I don't want to find out the hard-way. I CC for my protection would hate to be buried because I 1. left it at home or 2 failed to use the tools I brought with me.
    I tend to lean this way. I am going to do everything I can to avoid a fight. I am not however going to enter into a hand to hand fight, (Especially while carrying a gun he may get a hold of) with some guy that I don't know anything about. Sure he may hit you once, be satisfied and walk away grinning and all you get is a fat lip. Or he may hit you once, grab you from behind and choke you to death. I don't plan on waiting until he has me under his control to decide TRY and gain an advantage. Isn't the saying "Action beats reaction".
    If your confident in your hand to hand skills to the point that you will allow someone of unknown skills, mindset, and mental state grab or get within striking distance of you, then thats your decision.

  7. #157
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    and never forget, no matter how skilled/tuff/bad/blackbelt in whatever/trained you are, there is ALWAYS somebody out there that can whip your butt and this random guy just might be the one

  8. #158
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    Never pick a fight with an old man... he'll just kill you.
    So true. I've won national and international tournaments in Judo and I'm not exactly an old man yet... but once I figured out that I'm not nearly as strong and flexible as I used to be and don't heal as fast or as completely as I used to... I'm not letting anyone get their hands on me if I have any chance of avoiding it. If someone does get their hands on me then I will do my very best to get enough distance to draw and end the attack as quickly as possible.
    "I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
    You are not paranoid if They are actually out to get you, however, They probably are not and you probably are.

  9. #159
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    My first post here...

    but this ain't my first rodeo!

    It is imperative you understand the laws of the AREA/STATE the event takes place in. For instance, Washington state...


    RCW 9A.16.050
    Homicide — By other person — When justifiable.

    Homicide is also justifiable when committed either:

    (1) In the lawful defense of the slayer, or his or her husband, wife, parent, child, brother, or sister, or of any other person in his presence or company, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design on the part of the person slain to commit a felony or to do some great personal injury to the slayer or to any such person, and there is imminent danger of such design being accomplished; or

    (2) In the actual resistance of an attempt to commit a felony upon the slayer, in his presence, or upon or in a dwelling, or other place of abode, in which he is.

    Washington State Supreme Court affirmed state laws by ruling "that there is no duty to retreat when a person is assaulted in a place where he or she has a right to be." If you have a legal right to be somewhere, you can legally use deadly force if the situation meets the above condition(s) in Washington state.

    This is not true in many other states....states that have laws that require law abiding citizens "try to get away" or, in criminal law terms "the duty to retreat" : a specific component which sometimes appears in the defense of self-defense, and which must be addressed if the defendant is to prove that his or her conduct was justified. In other words, you maybe required to "prove you are innocent". in those jurisdictions where the requirement exists, the burden of proof is on the defense to show that the defendant was acting reasonably. This is often taken to mean that the defendant had first avoided conflict and secondly, had taken reasonable steps to retreat and so demonstrated an intention not to fight before eventually using deadly (or in many cases any)force.

    So the whole question asked by the OP is mute until the locality is known.

  10. #160
    Ex Member Array hamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by B94 View Post
    I would like to know if - do you have to fight?
    I understand that if there is a disparity of force you can use your gun to defend yourself. But what if there is no disparity of force, being that it appears to be an even match.

    My example is that a BG wants to fight you but you decline and try to leave. But the BG has you trapped with no escape. The BG has no weapons except fists. Can you draw and shoot if the BG won’t move out of your way so you can leave or do you have to fight?
    No you can't. Practically speaking, the cops will arrive and find a body with no weapon who you "say" wanted to fight you with his fists and even though you were the same size, physical shape you killed him instead of attempting defense by lesser means than lethal. This won't go down well with the DA.

    This is when pepper-spray or combat flash light come in handy. You can start with a lesser response than shooting that may well allow flight.

  11. #161
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    I carry a good sized Hellfighter tactical flashlight and the Kimber Pepper device. The OC spray in the weak hand and the light in the strong hand used for a hammer strike in the ready position would be first, Transition to gun if need be.

  12. #162
    New Member Array randyhenke's Avatar
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    The way I look at this situation is, he doesn't have a weapon right now whats to say he doesn't have one hidden under his clothes? Its possible that he doesn't want to draw attention to himself and keeps it hidden unless it is needed. Now if someone will not let you go and is attempting to fight you I believe that deadly force isn't required pull out your phone while keeping an eye on him and hold down the 9 button which is usually programed to dial 911. From here use your judgement and do everything you can do to not fight. If he starts towards you pull your weapon keep the distance between you.

  13. #163
    eb
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    My .02c is I'm not going to have been the aggressor in this situation. I'm a big guy but I'm not going fisticuffs on purpose. The fact that I have a gun and this person could get it if I'm compromised means I'm avoiding that at all costs. I'll draw down on him and hopefully its situation over. He advances, he's getting shot. That would constitute fear of grave injury or death. The way I see it, if someone advances while looking down the business end of a gun, they intend great harm.
    Last edited by eb; September 11th, 2011 at 08:17 PM.
    PPKman likes this.

  14. #164
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by B94
    I would like to know if - do you have to fight?
    I understand that if there is a disparity of force you can use your gun to defend yourself. But what if there is no disparity of force, being that it appears to be an even match.

    My example is that a BG wants to fight you but you decline and try to leave. But the BG has you trapped with no escape. The BG has no weapons except fists. Can you draw and shoot if the BG won’t move out of your way so you can leave or do you have to fight?
    Quote Originally Posted by hamlet View Post
    No you can't. Practically speaking, the cops will arrive and find a body with no weapon who you "say" wanted to fight you with his fists and even though you were the same size, physical shape you killed him instead of attempting defense by lesser means than lethal. This won't go down well with the DA.

    This is when pepper-spray or combat flash light come in handy. You can start with a lesser response than shooting that may well allow flight.
    It seems that from what I have read this is very true. In effect it allows the attacker the option of choosing the weapon that you are allowed to use to protect yourself from their attack.

    Michael

  15. #165
    Member Array TravisABQ's Avatar
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    The problem with "fighting" because someone else, out of the blue wants to "fight" you, is that you are arguably
    not acting in self defense, but you are engaging in voluntary mutual combat. Every act of force, every punch,
    every kick, every bite you make is your own willful act to perpetuate the combat.

    How long exactly do you figure you can trade violence tit-for-tat and then, SUDDENLY, employ deadly force and
    still be morally and legally justified?

    "Well, officer, these two guys of exactly the same weight and age were punching each other for a few minutes,
    then that guy reached for a gun we never knew he had, and shot the other guy, twice in the chest, and twice in the head."

    In CCW classes I've taken, it was impressed upon me that you CANNOT instigate a conflict
    and then decide to shoot your opponent because you are losing.

    Who ARE these guys who have people who "want to fight" them so ferociously, and yet
    announce themselves ever so politely? It seems I have never gotten THOSE attackers!
    DefConGun likes this.

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