I'll just speak from experience. Today's LEO has a lot more tools to use than we did years ago. Sometimes ya just gotta fight. I can't think of many places other than bars that you would get in an issue like that and in Fl, you ain't suppose to have a gun there. There was a lot of times I felt like unsnapping my gun and shooting the guy to get him off of me, but never got that far. Can't say that I won all the fights and a few got away and I was thankful of it at the time. I remember chasing a big dude late one night and finally finding him hiding under a bush. I pulled my service weapon, pointed it at him and told him to come out. He started screaming, Shoot me, Shoot me!!!! My first thought was to fire one off in the ground next to him but then what if he started screaming You Missed, You Missed, Try Again!!! So I just holstered my weapon, grabbed my Kel-light and waded in.
Oh yeah, as for Pepper Spray, I've used it and seen guys just blow it off like it was water. Also be prepared that you will get a good dose also. From what I hear, the new tazers work pretty good.
Instead of bowling go learn to fight it might save your ass one day.
Originally Posted by Frogbones
I hear you on the pepper spray... but jeez... I've offered to buy the jerk a pitcher, or a tenspot... I've done all I could to de-escalate... pepper spray might work, might not. For me not to be able to get away from him, means he's got me completely cornered. I can't shoot him, no disparity of force.. he's detaining me against my will, and he's determined to fight... If I can't get away... and he's that close (as to have me cornered)... The head butt might just have to do it, maybe a knee to the groin instead. But if he's so amped up to fight... and everything else being equal...
I think it muddies the waters when you mix the response of how a LEO should react vs. a civilian. I suspect that a civilian will have greater latitude in resorting to lethal force. Am I wrong?
I don't view myself as an expert on determining the differences. Anyone with better qualifications care to weigh in?
I think that a civilian "may" be given more latitude relative to the use of lethal force, but I would not rely too heavily on that depending on area of the contry among other things.
I see three potential solutions, although there may be more.
3. Overcome the aggression
OC may or may not be effective to varying degrees, somewhat depending on what you consider effective. I view it as a momentary distraction/discomfort rather than a fight stopper in itself. It provides a brief window for other measures, be they escape or other aggression stopping techniques. It is an enabler rather than a soution. I believe that it will be effective most of the time in that role.
Electrical stun devices may also be useful, if you favor that direction.
While virtually nothing is absolute, I believe that the company you keep and the locations you frequent will significantly influence the likelihood of encountering such situations.
There comes a time, when the talking is done. If there is no disparity of force issue, and someone has gotten that close to you, as to have you pinned, you missed the cut off point.
There are ways however, to circumvent this pickle. Sometimes it involves creating distance, by means of a strike, or other maneuver. However, you HAVE GOT TO BE COMMITTED TO YOUR ACTION! This is not the time to make a half hearted, weenie action. Strike first, strike decisively, strike last.
The only point I want to get across here, is an assault charge is a whole lot better than a manslaughter charge, in a worst case scenario. Everyone needs to think about this! There can be serious ramifications even if you are justified. By allowing yourself a less than lethal alternative, you can prevent yourself from being in a no win situation.
My advice to anyone, anywhere, is train in all manner of SD. The gun is NOT the only answer. Train until you bleed, until you like the taste of sweat and blood. Until when someone grabs you , or hits you, you can smile and say.....ahh...this is gonna be fun. I'm serious. You either are, or you ain't. Predator or prey.
Sometime the fetal position works very well. Do you really want to be in a place that management will allow something like this to escalate? Its really bad for repeat business. Also what I haven't heard mentioned is alcohol. Usually alcohol plays heavy into these matters. If it wasn't for alcohol and wimmen, there would be peace in the world. If you have had any alcohol at all, don't dare touch that weapon.
Yes, comparing this to what a LEO would do is possibly incorrect. But we got the ramifications of using that weapon pounded in our head all the time and old habits never die. But remember, just because you shoot someone doesn't prevent them from whipping your butt. You may just make them madder. Bad guys just don't fall down when shot like in the movies. From what I have seen and been told by fellow officers, you will actually think you have missed when you shoot someone. It takes a while for it to sink in that they have been shot most of the time and if they are really agitated, they may not realize it at all.
I can probably add a couple things.
I speak from the other end of the stick, at 5'8", 160lbs soaking wet.
I had four people holding me (in uniform), one on each arm and one on each leg, with one punching me. It wasn't until I got my nose broke that I decided it ws time to go to guns. Fortunately, at that moment, a large dep with a nightstick in hand arrived to provide some assistance.
Most people do not fight well. Wanting to win more than the other guy makes a big difference. Simple techniques often work the best. A small window can provide large results.
Other tools can give one an advantage without escalating beyond reasonable. A small edge can make the difference. If I slap you with my "gloves" on, which I wear when we go out at night, you are going down.
Yeah...love them gloves. We went into a biker bar in Tucson one Saturday night. Some big old hairy scooter trash (6'6" or better and at least 450lbs) saw me putting my lead gloves on and said..."It's your world officer...I'm done!"
Originally Posted by Guantes
Tis true. I have used both their appearance and use to bring immediate "calm" to a number of situations. People who experience them from the wrong end, quickly decide that it is not an experience that they wish to repeat.
In the old days we just had lead filled slaps and shock batons aka cattle prods.
Since I was one of the folks who said I would not opt for fisti-cuffs, I'll put another response in here.
First of all, avoidance in the best defense in such situations, and I guess sometimes, it can not be avoided due to poor planning, and a lack of situational awareness (a skill that I would argue is more important than h2h combat, and something that actually can be learned, and requires training for upkeep), or just crappy luck on a certain day. So, lets say through whatever reason, I find myself backed into a corner, with no viable means of escape except through physical violence. I have tried to de-escalate verbally, and that did not work. I have tried to peacefully leave, and that did not work.
My EDC gear consists of my carry gun, two spare mags, Spyderco Endura, cell phone, wallet, and keys. I don't really want to wear a Batman belt as a civilian. As an infantryman, I have pretty extensive training in my service's martial art, which is not taught at Mc-dojo's, and places an emphasis on real fighting. I have trained and practiced both non-lethal techniques, and lethal techniques (more training on this, obviously we can't kill our sparring partners).
My first choice at this point would actually be my cell phone, especially in a scenario such as AZ Infidel's where there is a barrier. Call 911, start explaining the situation, and let them record what is going on, and hopefully get some help on the way.
If the phone doesn't work, or someone puts their hands on me, I am going to respond in whatever way I feel necessary in order to defend myself, while using appropriate force according to the continuum of force. I have attempted to de-escalate and escape, and through no fault of my own, it did not work. There is a viable threat to my well being. What if the guy gets me in an arm-bar, that can certainly cause grievous bodily harm, or he kicks out my knee, handicapping me for life? Do I need to wait for him to do that before I can defend myself? Even if I go hands on with him, there is a chance that a jury will see me as using too much force if I dislocate a joint, or break a bone. Because I am a trained killer with combat experience, and will be for the rest of my days. So why did I need to go that far on a drunk who wouldn't let me leave?
Someone said taking a life is the most serious thing you can do, if you read my posts here, I have said that in other threads. I am very aware of how true that statement is. If for the rest of my days I don't shoot another human being, I will be happy. But I will not allow someone to cause me serious bodily harm or kill me if I can stop it from happening. Of course, there are a million variables to this, including each individual who carries and their training/skills/size/general health, and the BG's apperance/size/intent/words/posture (and the same if he has any friends). But that is my answer for me. Everyone else needs to come up with their own answer.
Of course, in every fist fight I have ever been in, there was always a point where I could of walked away from it, and for stupid or not so stupid reasons I didn't.
You mean something like these, although one is technically a BJ.