Nothing like a little leather and metal to change ones attitude eh Guantes. The first time I used Mace back in the early 70's I became a believer in "A little Mace in the face is no disgrace". Though they are not 100% and what is, I am always in possession of a non-lethal chemical spray in one form or another when I am out and about and carrying and I am always carrying. Options are good especially when you have to escalate the use force.
I hadn't thought about my slapper in a long time.
I did have my G'pa's old BJ, but just realized I probably lost it in a fire.
Two questions. One, I understand that if you become disabled during the fight then you may have reached disparity of force. Suppose I can't get away, I can't buy the BG off, and he isn't that much bigger than me. When I try to get away, he hits me a couple of times, and I wind up on the floor with the breath knocked out of me, and I'm not really able to effectively resist. The guy says he's going to whip my butt and closes to hit me again. Am I anywhere near an acceptable (to a jury) disparity of force?
Two, is it equivalent to brandishing to tell someone you are going to shoot them? Rather than draw, can I say "I don't want to fight, but if you attack me, I'll shoot you" and avoid the problems with brandishing? Now the BG has been informed the fight won't be "on common ground." Does it help your case at all if the BG, having been warned that you are armed, still presses a physical attack? Would one be justified in shooting to stop such an attack?
@Buckeye....your example of getting into an arm-bar and having your elbow disloacted is NOT GRAVE bodily harm as a court would define it. A dislocated knee is NOT grave bodily harm as a court would define it. It is a sustained injury to be sure, but it is not a crippling or paralytic injury. And since you are a "trained killer" wouldn't your training negate the possibility of a mere human ever getting you into such an untenuous situation? Your example of YOU dislocating the joint of someone else being seen as "too much force"...versus what? Shooting them as you seem to prefer over going hands on????
You have stated also that in every fight you were ever in, there WAS a point at which you could of(sic) walked away. So...rather than walk away...you'd shoot? Forgive me for thinking with a cop brain, but it just isn't adding up. I'd be compelled to put you in cuffs and read you your miranda if I were a responding officer. My testimony in your MURDER trial wouldn't be what your defense lawyer would want to hear.
I respect your military service...but the rules of engagement in a military setting aren't even close to being applicable on the street where I served in MY uniform for over two decades and was involved in two lethal force encounters and one exchange of gunfire that resulted in the stopping of an armed subject who is now in prison in a wheelchair ******* and crapping into a bag..but hey..at least he isn't dead. So, in this arena, I know what I am talking about. The common denominator to those encounters were ARMED subjects with the means and ability to take my life or the life of another I was legally able to protect. So, in your words, I am a "trained killer" too with, what I would guess is a LOT more real world street training, just as Guantes and Sandlflea are. Beyond that, I know the reality of surviving a courtroom when the press and scumbag lawyers looking for a notch in their belt are trying to crucify you.
Soldiers are praised and applauded for body count. Cops and civilians are vilified. No one will pin a medal on your butt for gunning down a thug who just wanted a fist fight.
If by your example, someone were to want to kick my butt and it has been known to happen, especially while on duty...if I were to go around shooting them willy nilly...I would be in prison now. During a 22 plus year career...I have had to go hands on many many many times. Often, especially as a deputy working a large area ALONE with backup miles and miles away, by your yardstick....I'd have a section of a graveyard dedicated to my kills if I gunned down every swingin' weenie that took a poke at me.
The military teaches you to fight as a part of a unit....that is a soldier. The streets teach you how to fight alone...that is a warrior. That bit of knowledge was passed on to me by my defensive tactics instructor nearly 25 years ago. He was a HIGHLY decorated former Green Beret and veteran of four tours in VietNam. He would be the first to tell you what I have relayed.
I just don't see the water your argument is supposed to hold. In fact, if you go a step further...YOUR training in martial arts (yes...armed combat IS a martial art) along with whatever hand to hand combat training you received would make YOU more responsible in the eyes of the law and in a court than Joe Average. The expectation that you COULD hold your own or prevail without having to go to lethal force would weigh heavily in a courtroom decision either for or against you. It is the "You should have known better...." yardstick. Even for me, as a civilian now since retiring, I would be held to a much higher standard than Joe Average and would also be judged by that "You should have known better..." yardstick.
There is no such thing as a "court of justice"....there are only "courts of law" and they are presided over by judges with their own agendas, lawyers looking to add notches to their conviction rates, and jusries who really don't have a clue for the most part. If you spend enough time stuck in courtrooms waiting to testify in yet another BS trial that is only going to be pled down to a misdemeanor, or continued because the junky scumbag is in rehab trying to get some wiggle on a diversion program, you begin to understand how things work in the real world.
If you don't lend creedence to what I have said or what Guantes or the several other experience LEO's have written here...look to the writing of Massad Ayoob, one of the most highly respected and knowledgeable police officers and courtroom survival trainers (and yes a police officer with over 30 years carrying a badge). Also a Police Prosecutor, and expert witness in hundreds of lethal force cases.
I am not saying that there isn't a time for lethal force, there is. But not for a stupid fistfight.
By your question as I understand your meaning, there probably would be justification at that point. Obviously, if you are taking such a beating that you now reasonably believe you are about to be killed or crippled (or even raped)....you are justified in using lethnal force. HOWEVER...if you are a willing prticipant in mutual combat, i.e...you did just as much to cause the fight as the other guy...you know...not walking away and start getting your ass handed to you....you may not claim self defense. There's that darned trick bag again. So we will assume you di all you reasonably could to avoind it, and ity all went south...you'd be good.
Originally Posted by jfnixon
Your second question is not brandishing in Arizona...I don't know the law where you are...BUT...here it is called a "defensive display" and totally legal to show or announce you are armed and ready to defend yourself against attack.
I agree with this post 100%. In our CCW class taught by a former LEO and SWAT agent - you can only escalate one level in a confrontation. He hits you - you can use a kubaton, knife or spray. He produces a knife you may draw your gun. He points a gun at you - you shoot him. (this is in Ohio) This is why I train in martial arts, carry a kubaton, knife and gun. I'm nearing my black belt. I'm no self proclaimed bad ass but if you swing at me more than likely you will miss and I take out your knee. If you strike - go 100% - no half ass garbage. Strike fast and last and with purpose.
Originally Posted by black knife
Of course you ALWAYS try to disengage. Eat those words. Walk away WITHOUT turning your back. Once violence starts bad things can happen either way. Do your best to avoid it.
Now...IMO....it gets sticky if he tackles you to the ground. You have a gun. You have a knife. Under NO circumstances can you let him grab it! If you have to pull out the gun and strike him in the head with the butt. Buy yourself that precious second to GET TO YOUR FEET. In a fight you never want to be on the ground!! Keep weapons in YOUR hand not his!!
This is a great post but no cut and dry answers...it's all situational. Know your local laws...train to use all options. Remember up tight knees and elbows are the order of the day. Aim for vital targets. Knees, armpit, philtrum, temples, neck, groin. There is no such thing as a "fair fight" on the street. Your goal is to strike fast, hard, disable and disengage.
There is wisdom in you Daniel San.
Originally Posted by zip777
Yep, that center one looks like my old slap. Lost it in 1978. Myself and another officer was wrestling one on the ground when his buddy came up and popped me upside the head, telling us to let his buddy go. I backed him across a parking lot until he hit a pole. When he turned to see what he had backed into, I hit him upside the head as hard as I could swing. He turned and just looked at me and the fight begun. He took the slap away and attempted to hit me with it. I caught it with my left hand and broke a finger. We were trading blows with our free hands and I couldn't faze this guy. No telling what he was jacked up on. My partner seen us rolling on the ground with him on top and fired a round in the air. The guy spooked and ran taking my slap with him. I let him have it and didn't even bother to chase him.
My Master Instructor would be proud. :D
Originally Posted by AZ Infidel
Yep...there are those times when you are just too freakin' tired, battered, and sore to chase some dummy.
Originally Posted by Sandflea13
I was stuck 130 miles from home in Ajo Arizona...a small fart of a mining town in western Pima County...almost to the Yuma County line. I was in a little hot water for having a smart mouth (young and stupid and just off my year probation). Anyway...I got called to a bar fight where an EXTREMELY large native american was drunk and breaking the place up. This guy tossed me around like a rag doll. My PR24, no matter what strike or hold I employed did a thing. Finally, I pulled my sap out of my slit pocket and started slapping the crap out of him with it. At last he said.."Ouch cop. You hurt me." and sat down peacefully.
I don't know which of us was bloodier...him or me....but I knew my uniform had to be replaced right down to the ground.
Yep...though most of my fights (even a knife fight) were in late teens......I've learned many things since and have been able to avoid problems well before they start. Practicing the lessons learned early on has kept me free of conflict for more the 15yrs.
Originally Posted by Guantes
I believe in colorado grave bodily harm is not necessary, plain old bodily harm will do. And I don't have to wait until I've been assaulted either. The threat is enough. If you're a fighter you may have the option to escalate. But you are risking not being able to reach your gun in time to keep you alive. In that bathroom situation I'd be on the phone with 911, gun in other hand.
I wonder if those slaps are legal here in OH?? Looks like a good alternative to a kubaton. Flat and can slide right into a pocket in cargo pants.
Originally Posted by AZ Infidel
First of all, the trained killer remark is in no part me being a mall ninja, or Rambo, but that is the common public perception of Marine infantrymen. Often within 10-15 minutes of someone new learning I have been overseas the question "Did you shoot someone?" or "Have you killed anyone?" comes out. I don't know why, but it does. So is that how a jury of 12 of my peers going to see me, that is entirely likely. And I have been in enough fights in my life to know I can get my butt kicked. Before I joined the Marines I was a bouncer to pay my way through college, it wasn't the smartest job choice I ever made, but it paid my bills, and taught me a fair bit about life. I think that a lot of people on this board would agree that I am not some blood thirsty mall ninja who is out to shoot people first. Like I said, if I go the rest of my life without having to shoot another human being, I am perfectly okay with that, in fact, I pray I never need to pull the trigger on a human being again.
I have great respect for police officers, and other law enforcement officials, including yourself, guantes, sandflea, old school, sixto and all the others on this board. It is a hard job, requiring a special kind of person to do it right. Yes, you are all trained killers too. The main difference I see between a cop in a situation like this, and a civilian, is that the police officer is required to have the less lethal training, and carry the less lethal tools. As a civilian, I do not carry a duty belt, loaded with 1 lethal, and 3 non-lethal options (ASP, OC, and Tazer), if I carried all that as a civilian, people would think I had lost it probably. Also all the discussion on here of saps and shot filled gloves, those are a great tool, but a big no-no when it comes to civilian use. Police officers have more tools available, and more training in using those tools than the average civilian. And police officers are held to a higher standard by society, and expected to show restraint, and given the tools that allow them to do so. If I have to defend myself in a situation like this, it will not be as a service member, it will be as a civilian, where I will be held accountable at that level, needing to meet the requirements of that state as far as self defense laws. So, equating this to you being on duty is slightly skewed, in my mind, because the requirements and expectations are different.
I am not questioning your credentials, I am sure that they are quite extensive, and you have done a great service to your community over the years. As you guessed, I am still relatively young at 25, so I only have a few years of training and experience. I think however, that you and I are just not quite seeing eye to eye on this, and I respect that, and respect your opinion, and the experience behind it. Like I said above, everyone has to come to their own conclusions on how they would handle the situation.
Like I said, if all my attempts at de-escalation have failed repeatedly, and I have done everything I can to avoid the situation, I am going to defend myself at whatever level on the continuum of force I feel is necessary for me to avoid serious bodily harm or death. As I also said, there are too many variables to say what that level will be for sure. I have also not straight out said I would shoot him, I have said several times, use the appropriate amount of force to end the threat. I think this situation could escalate into the need to use lethal force if the variables were a certain way, and not lethal if used another. You seem to of just assumed that meant go straight for my gun. It means use whatever force I need to to keep myself alive. And as a civilain, I don't have all the tools a police officer does, and right now I have the added stigma from my experiences. I really think this is a darned if you do, darned if you don't scenario for a civilian, and I was offering my opinion, which is different than yours, and I respect that.
EDIT: Here are the definitions of "serious bodily harm", the fear of which is one of 3 requirements to claim self defense in Ohio (the other two being you are not at fault for the situation, and you attempted to de-escalate/retreat):
(5) “Serious physical harm to persons” means any of the following:
(a) Any mental illness or condition of such gravity as would normally require hospitalization or prolonged psychiatric treatment;
(b) Any physical harm that carries a substantial risk of death;
(c) Any physical harm that involves some permanent incapacity, whether partial or total, or that involves some temporary, substantial incapacity;
(d) Any physical harm that involves some permanent disfigurement or that involves some temporary, serious disfigurement;
(e) Any physical harm that involves acute pain of such duration as to result in substantial suffering or that involves any degree of prolonged or intractable pain.
This is the type of situation where less than lethal force is needed. A dose of OC/Pepper spray in the face will take the fight out of most people. Or at least give you the opportunity to inflict enough (kick to the knee or between the legs) damage to end the matter.