Just something that I think is sometimes forgotten in serious subjects.
Just something that I think is sometimes forgotten in serious subjects.
Just wanting to point out also that I am in no way saying that a senior citizen, or person with a medical condition such as a cardiac patient, a person on blood thinners, a person with a pacemaker, a person with emphysema, a person with crippling arthritis or any such other malady like that, should be expected to take any part of a beating before using lethal force. Good gracious, use some common sense. That is a disparity of force!
The whole point of this particular thread is in cases where there is NO Disparity of Force and both parties are of the same physical condition, size and age, etc, and one party who is unarmed insists on picking a fight.
The question is basically, if you have a gun and the other guy has no weapons and wants to fight you, and you are both essentially same physical age, size, condition is it okay to kill him? And I say, "Go ahead, then come back and let us know how it worked out for you in court!" I'm guessing you're going to get got.
AS I am only 5 foot 4 inches it is never an "even" match for me.
But, I'm certainly not a lawyer. I just see a lot of people who seem to think it's okay to shoot anyone who goes "Boo!" Maybe not.
First, size doesn't really matter in most cases, in my years of martial arts training I always was a little apprehensive of people shorter than me, weight and everything else being almost equal, gravitational center closer to the ground is an advantage.
Second, I would consider calling 911 first and request help as I am being assaulted. That could give me legal leverage first, I would declare I'm armed and I don't intend to draw my weapon but there is a possibility my assailant want to take possession of it. You guys can imagine how this would develop, I'd make my intentions loud and clear so the 911 operator gets the message all along until the end whatever it might be.
If I'm not able to call 911 and my assailant knows I have a weapon, but he doubts I'm going to use it, and then he attacks, he's dead already because the only option he has to survive at that moment is to neutralize me, hopefully with my own weapon.
In the end I'd prefer to be judged by twelve than to be carried by six.
Of course I could be wrong about the whole thing here as this is what I know, but one thing I'm sure of this:
When an assailant tries get in possession of your weapon, he is introducing deadly force in the equation, so you are entitled to defend your life.
Then you can call 911, inform of the location where you are, then inform the operator shots have been fired , there is a hurt person so you need an ambulance, ( again fishing for legal leverage here). When the police gets there which is going to be really fast now, be ready for them, they might or not have their weapons drawn, raise your hands and inform them you have your sidearm holstered, then ask in loud voice: " what do you want me to do!" follow their instructions and Don't say anything to them as it won't help you in a court of law, just tell them you need to talk to your lawyer.
This is a grisly business, in the end, in most cases it's easier to walk to the opposite side of the street and avoid this kind of situation altogether. IMO
Here in Oklahoma with a cc license we are not allowed to disclose he presence of a weapon, as it is considered as brandishing a weapon.
I have a silly question and I realize the thread is only a "what if". How do you get yourself in a situation where this "what if" actually happens? Situational awareness is a major part of the key to this. I probably am fortunate having grown up in areas that are not crime-ridden pieces of garbage real estate, but I am 69 and have never had a fight in my life. If you have gotten into such a situation, more than likely and most probably some of it is your own making and, as said in many replies, there is no easy answer mainly because, IMO, you are at fault as well.
" Never pick a fight with an old man. If he's to old to fight ya he will just kill ya".
A little humor injected into an otherwise serious discussion.
In Florida the statute reads "if you or someone else is in eminate, immediate danger of death or great bodily harm",in regards to the use of deadly force in defense of yourself or another. Florida's laws are very friendly when it comes to law abiding citizens protecting themselves. You still have to be able to articulate and justify your actions.
Sometimes your SA will work for you and sometimes no matter what you do trouble will find you. I am sure the members of this board avoid trouble as best they can.
Most of us are not heroes just survivors of real life experinces. There is evil in this world.
I agree with most of the posters above who say its probably ill-advised to open fire just because the guy won't get out of your way. Assuming you've made every reasonable effort to deescalate and he's continued, and given that you have no route of escape, I think advising the perpetrator that you are armed is a reasonable action. (I understand that laws about brandishing exist and vary state to state, I'm just saying what I think is a REASONABLE action, not necessarily the legal one).
That said, if a man KNOWS you are armed, and continues to close the distance and engage you, I think a reasonable person has cause to fear for their life. Something has convinced this person (drugs, a weapon you don't know about maybe) that he knows something you don't, and even if armed, he thinks he can still do you serious bodily harm.
Obviously not the ideal situation, so as others have said, having some secondary manner of self defense (hand-to-hand training, OC or whatever) seems advisable. I take Krav Maga, and they emphasize quite a bit that if you are assaulted you have to operate as though it is a life or death matter every time. Because if you lose a fist-fight, and get knocked down, or knocked out, the assailant can do whatever they want, which may include killing you (whether intentionally or not, like if they decide to give you just a few stomps for good measure.)
Perhaps the most important thing, whatever you decide, is being able to articulate WHY you made the decision you did in fear for your life, and why you think it was a reasonable decision.
Given the OP's scenerio, one would be on treacherous legal grounds unless physically battered and "in fear of death or serious harm." Having read the book "Florida Firearms - Law, Use & Ownership" the lawyer author makes it abundantly clear that all firearm laws are gray to one extent or another, contraversial, and the proverbial "reasonable person" many like to throw in is not the reason of the person involved, but that "reasonableness" of the judge and jury. Even showing that you are armed, with the intent of warning off your attacker, may or may not be viewed as "aggrevated assault"--a felony.
While it may be your fault to some extent, such as going to a "puke joint" bar or similar unsavory location, it could also happen in an "upstanding" location.
There is a percentage of people, that while not normally criminal, are life long bullies, bad attitude drinkers/drunks and generally unpleasant individuals. While these individuals may concentrate in certain type locations, they can on occasion also be found in more common and generally peaceful locations, from super markets to restaurants.
I agree, that through situational awareness, you might avoid many such possible encounters. Avoiding many, is not avoiding all. All it would take is for one of these individuals intent on a conflict, for whatever reason, to side step while passing you to cause a collision. From there become indignant and combative, regardless of your best efforts to de-escalate the situation. De-escalation will sometimes not work on someone intent on having a conflict.
Bottom line. You may avoid most and possibly all such situations, but you may be drawn into one through no fault of your own.
Okay, so. Your SA has failed you and you are trapped by your twin, or someone so nearly like you, that there is no disparity of force issue, and he has decided that your offer of a beer or a tenspot is not what he wants.. He just wants to fight. You. Period.
Now, if I use what I know will stop him, a head butt to the face, he might die when he crashes to the ground. And then I'm up for manslaughter.
So, instead, I knee him to the groin, oops, he hit his head on the sink, and now he's dead from that. Same deal.. Manslaughter.
Okay so that won't work, so I decide to kick him in the knee, and I've managed to dislocate it. He has a heart attack... Shoot, foiled again! I'm in the pokey.
So, I spray him. (thanks for buying that for me Gman) I didn't know he was also an asthmatic like myself (I should have known, no disparity of force, OP, and all that), and he starts having an asthma attack. I call 911 but he dies anyway enroute... Here I am in the pokey again.
So, having nearly run the gamut of my utility belt, I come against my last resort... a feather! That's it, I can tickle him to death... well not to death... but just enough so I can get away. Well, maybe it could work.
All of the posts here have seemingly sound reasoning behind them. They vary from shoot the guy, to an arm bar, to mace, to saps, to ZZZZaps.
Technically, if I train in self defense and he hasn't (which violates the rules of the OP, but let's pretend anyway), I now have superior "firepower" and the ability to maim or kill him... the lawyers will, of course, find this out. Suddenly, I'm in gaol again.
I need Kirk to hack the simulator, because this is Kobiashi Maru.
The final option is to just fight the guy in the same way he fights me, I guess.
We'll be like the Rock'em Sock'em Robots... only, of course, nobody's block will be knocked off.
♪♫ Mama, put my guns in the ground,
I can't shoot them anymore.... ♪♫