Do you have to fight? - Page 5

Do you have to fight?

This is a discussion on Do you have to fight? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Just something that I think is sometimes forgotten in serious subjects....

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Thread: Do you have to fight?

  1. #61
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Just something that I think is sometimes forgotten in serious subjects.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".


  2. #62
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    Array Bark'n's Avatar
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    Just wanting to point out also that I am in no way saying that a senior citizen, or person with a medical condition such as a cardiac patient, a person on blood thinners, a person with a pacemaker, a person with emphysema, a person with crippling arthritis or any such other malady like that, should be expected to take any part of a beating before using lethal force. Good gracious, use some common sense. That is a disparity of force!

    The whole point of this particular thread is in cases where there is NO Disparity of Force and both parties are of the same physical condition, size and age, etc, and one party who is unarmed insists on picking a fight.

    The question is basically, if you have a gun and the other guy has no weapons and wants to fight you, and you are both essentially same physical age, size, condition is it okay to kill him? And I say, "Go ahead, then come back and let us know how it worked out for you in court!" I'm guessing you're going to get got.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  3. #63
    Distinguished Member Array Spec's Avatar
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    AS I am only 5 foot 4 inches it is never an "even" match for me.
    NRA Certified Rifle/Pistol Instructor
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G18CFw0lnD8

    Accuracy ALWAYS WINS! So carry what you can hit with.

    If you find yourself in a fair fight your tactics stink.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spec View Post
    AS I am only 5 foot 4 inches it is never an "even" match for me.
    I wouldn't bet my freedom on that criteria alone. Especially if the guy was anywhere under 6 feet. Say, 5 foot 7 inches or 5 foot 8 inches would probably still be considered a fairly even match. But you're welcome to run that up the flag pole and see how the winds blow at trial.

    But, I'm certainly not a lawyer. I just see a lot of people who seem to think it's okay to shoot anyone who goes "Boo!" Maybe not.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkCo1 View Post
    AZ and you other h to h fans,
    I was pretty good at taking care of myself years back. But now with two heart attacks, resulting in taking heavy blood thinners. Being a gerry. If cornerd and cannot convince someone
    that I don't want to fight and will not fight. I wiil do what is necessary to convince them to quit. I may have to face a jury but I will not take a beating. All of you will cross this bridge in time
    and your thoughts and actions will change. Food for thought.
    Semper Fi
    That's what I was trying to say...I'm too old and have had too many parts removed...just leave me alone.
    The last Blood Moon Tetrad for this millennium starts in April 2014 and ends in September 2015...according to NASA.

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  6. #66
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    Great thread.

    First, size doesn't really matter in most cases, in my years of martial arts training I always was a little apprehensive of people shorter than me, weight and everything else being almost equal, gravitational center closer to the ground is an advantage.

    Second, I would consider calling 911 first and request help as I am being assaulted. That could give me legal leverage first, I would declare I'm armed and I don't intend to draw my weapon but there is a possibility my assailant want to take possession of it. You guys can imagine how this would develop, I'd make my intentions loud and clear so the 911 operator gets the message all along until the end whatever it might be.

    If I'm not able to call 911 and my assailant knows I have a weapon, but he doubts I'm going to use it, and then he attacks, he's dead already because the only option he has to survive at that moment is to neutralize me, hopefully with my own weapon.

    In the end I'd prefer to be judged by twelve than to be carried by six.

    Of course I could be wrong about the whole thing here as this is what I know, but one thing I'm sure of this:
    When an assailant tries get in possession of your weapon, he is introducing deadly force in the equation, so you are entitled to defend your life.
    Then you can call 911, inform of the location where you are, then inform the operator shots have been fired , there is a hurt person so you need an ambulance, ( again fishing for legal leverage here). When the police gets there which is going to be really fast now, be ready for them, they might or not have their weapons drawn, raise your hands and inform them you have your sidearm holstered, then ask in loud voice: " what do you want me to do!" follow their instructions and Don't say anything to them as it won't help you in a court of law, just tell them you need to talk to your lawyer.

    This is a grisly business, in the end, in most cases it's easier to walk to the opposite side of the street and avoid this kind of situation altogether. IMO

    Here in Oklahoma with a cc license we are not allowed to disclose he presence of a weapon, as it is considered as brandishing a weapon.
    Go with the glow

  7. #67
    Senior Member Array Beans's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post
    I'm an old fart...
    I don't really want to fight anyone...
    I'm not going to be held against my will...
    If you threaten to physically harm me...you've made a poor victim choice.

    If I've done nothing to instigate an incident...you have picked me out for some personal fun...you've made a big mistake.
    I will react quickly and violently, and I'll deal with the aftermath...you won't have to worry about what happens after the incident.
    I agree with you. As a 100% disabled vet I can't fight anymore. I won't start one and will avoid one if possible. If not possible I will prevail

  8. #68
    Senior Member Array EvilMonk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by airslot View Post
    To young to die
    To old to take an ass whoopin
    I'm going to shoot you
    ^^^This^^^

    Perfectly legal in KY. If someone threatens you with unprovoked physical manually applied violence, you can shoot them. Thus sayeth the AG.
    That which does not kill us leaves us broken and bleeding...

    Don’t mess with the guy who can barely stand up. His remaining options for self-defense don't include your survival.

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  9. #69
    Distinguished Member Array kelcarry's Avatar
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    I have a silly question and I realize the thread is only a "what if". How do you get yourself in a situation where this "what if" actually happens? Situational awareness is a major part of the key to this. I probably am fortunate having grown up in areas that are not crime-ridden pieces of garbage real estate, but I am 69 and have never had a fight in my life. If you have gotten into such a situation, more than likely and most probably some of it is your own making and, as said in many replies, there is no easy answer mainly because, IMO, you are at fault as well.

  10. #70
    VIP Member Array Old School's Avatar
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    " Never pick a fight with an old man. If he's to old to fight ya he will just kill ya".

    A little humor injected into an otherwise serious discussion.

    In Florida the statute reads "if you or someone else is in eminate, immediate danger of death or great bodily harm",in regards to the use of deadly force in defense of yourself or another. Florida's laws are very friendly when it comes to law abiding citizens protecting themselves. You still have to be able to articulate and justify your actions.
    "Violence is seldom the answer, but when it is the answer it is the only answer".

    "A nation of sheep breeds a government of wolves".

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  11. #71
    Senior Member Array BkCo1's Avatar
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    Kelcarry,
    Sometimes your SA will work for you and sometimes no matter what you do trouble will find you. I am sure the members of this board avoid trouble as best they can.
    Most of us are not heroes just survivors of real life experinces. There is evil in this world.
    Semper Fi

  12. #72
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    I agree with most of the posters above who say its probably ill-advised to open fire just because the guy won't get out of your way. Assuming you've made every reasonable effort to deescalate and he's continued, and given that you have no route of escape, I think advising the perpetrator that you are armed is a reasonable action. (I understand that laws about brandishing exist and vary state to state, I'm just saying what I think is a REASONABLE action, not necessarily the legal one).

    That said, if a man KNOWS you are armed, and continues to close the distance and engage you, I think a reasonable person has cause to fear for their life. Something has convinced this person (drugs, a weapon you don't know about maybe) that he knows something you don't, and even if armed, he thinks he can still do you serious bodily harm.

    Obviously not the ideal situation, so as others have said, having some secondary manner of self defense (hand-to-hand training, OC or whatever) seems advisable. I take Krav Maga, and they emphasize quite a bit that if you are assaulted you have to operate as though it is a life or death matter every time. Because if you lose a fist-fight, and get knocked down, or knocked out, the assailant can do whatever they want, which may include killing you (whether intentionally or not, like if they decide to give you just a few stomps for good measure.)

    Perhaps the most important thing, whatever you decide, is being able to articulate WHY you made the decision you did in fear for your life, and why you think it was a reasonable decision.

  13. #73
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    Given the OP's scenerio, one would be on treacherous legal grounds unless physically battered and "in fear of death or serious harm." Having read the book "Florida Firearms - Law, Use & Ownership" the lawyer author makes it abundantly clear that all firearm laws are gray to one extent or another, contraversial, and the proverbial "reasonable person" many like to throw in is not the reason of the person involved, but that "reasonableness" of the judge and jury. Even showing that you are armed, with the intent of warning off your attacker, may or may not be viewed as "aggrevated assault"--a felony.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

  14. #74
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelcarry View Post
    I have a silly question and I realize the thread is only a "what if". How do you get yourself in a situation where this "what if" actually happens? Situational awareness is a major part of the key to this. I probably am fortunate having grown up in areas that are not crime-ridden pieces of garbage real estate, but I am 69 and have never had a fight in my life. If you have gotten into such a situation, more than likely and most probably some of it is your own making and, as said in many replies, there is no easy answer mainly because, IMO, you are at fault as well.
    By and large, I have to disagree with your position on this.
    While it may be your fault to some extent, such as going to a "puke joint" bar or similar unsavory location, it could also happen in an "upstanding" location.
    There is a percentage of people, that while not normally criminal, are life long bullies, bad attitude drinkers/drunks and generally unpleasant individuals. While these individuals may concentrate in certain type locations, they can on occasion also be found in more common and generally peaceful locations, from super markets to restaurants.

    I agree, that through situational awareness, you might avoid many such possible encounters. Avoiding many, is not avoiding all. All it would take is for one of these individuals intent on a conflict, for whatever reason, to side step while passing you to cause a collision. From there become indignant and combative, regardless of your best efforts to de-escalate the situation. De-escalation will sometimes not work on someone intent on having a conflict.

    Bottom line. You may avoid most and possibly all such situations, but you may be drawn into one through no fault of your own.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  15. #75
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Okay, so. Your SA has failed you and you are trapped by your twin, or someone so nearly like you, that there is no disparity of force issue, and he has decided that your offer of a beer or a tenspot is not what he wants.. He just wants to fight. You. Period.

    Now, if I use what I know will stop him, a head butt to the face, he might die when he crashes to the ground. And then I'm up for manslaughter.

    So, instead, I knee him to the groin, oops, he hit his head on the sink, and now he's dead from that. Same deal.. Manslaughter.

    Okay so that won't work, so I decide to kick him in the knee, and I've managed to dislocate it. He has a heart attack... Shoot, foiled again! I'm in the pokey.

    So, I spray him. (thanks for buying that for me Gman) I didn't know he was also an asthmatic like myself (I should have known, no disparity of force, OP, and all that), and he starts having an asthma attack. I call 911 but he dies anyway enroute... Here I am in the pokey again.

    So, having nearly run the gamut of my utility belt, I come against my last resort... a feather! That's it, I can tickle him to death... well not to death... but just enough so I can get away. Well, maybe it could work.

    All of the posts here have seemingly sound reasoning behind them. They vary from shoot the guy, to an arm bar, to mace, to saps, to ZZZZaps.

    Technically, if I train in self defense and he hasn't (which violates the rules of the OP, but let's pretend anyway), I now have superior "firepower" and the ability to maim or kill him... the lawyers will, of course, find this out. Suddenly, I'm in gaol again.

    I need Kirk to hack the simulator, because this is Kobiashi Maru.

    The final option is to just fight the guy in the same way he fights me, I guess.

    We'll be like the Rock'em Sock'em Robots... only, of course, nobody's block will be knocked off.

    Sigh...

    ♪♫ Mama, put my guns in the ground,
    I can't shoot them anymore.... ♪♫
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

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