I would like to know if - do you have to fight?
I understand that if there is a disparity of force you can use your gun to defend yourself. But what if there is no disparity of force, being that it appears to be an even match.
My example is that a BG wants to fight you but you decline and try to leave. But the BG has you trapped with no escape. The BG has no weapons except fists. Can you draw and shoot if the BG won’t move out of your way so you can leave or do you have to fight?
So true. I've won national and international tournaments in Judo and I'm not exactly an old man yet... but once I figured out that I'm not nearly as strong and flexible as I used to be and don't heal as fast or as completely as I used to... I'm not letting anyone get their hands on me if I have any chance of avoiding it. If someone does get their hands on me then I will do my very best to get enough distance to draw and end the attack as quickly as possible.
It is imperative you understand the laws of the AREA/STATE the event takes place in. For instance, Washington state...
RCW 9A.16.050
Homicide — By other person — When justifiable.
Homicide is also justifiable when committed either:
(1) In the lawful defense of the slayer, or his or her husband, wife, parent, child, brother, or sister, or of any other person in his presence or company, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design on the part of the person slain to commit a felony or to do some great personal injury to the slayer or to any such person, and there is imminent danger of such design being accomplished; or
(2) In the actual resistance of an attempt to commit a felony upon the slayer, in his presence, or upon or in a dwelling, or other place of abode, in which he is.
Washington State Supreme Court affirmed state laws by ruling "that there is no duty to retreat when a person is assaulted in a place where he or she has a right to be." If you have a legal right to be somewhere, you can legally use deadly force if the situation meets the above condition(s) in Washington state.
This is not true in many other states....states that have laws that require law abiding citizens "try to get away" or, in criminal law terms "the duty to retreat" : a specific component which sometimes appears in the defense of self-defense, and which must be addressed if the defendant is to prove that his or her conduct was justified. In other words, you maybe required to "prove you are innocent". in those jurisdictions where the requirement exists, the burden of proof is on the defense to show that the defendant was acting reasonably. This is often taken to mean that the defendant had first avoided conflict and secondly, had taken reasonable steps to retreat and so demonstrated an intention not to fight before eventually using deadly (or in many cases any)force.
So the whole question asked by the OP is mute until the locality is known.
No you can't. Practically speaking, the cops will arrive and find a body with no weapon who you "say" wanted to fight you with his fists and even though you were the same size, physical shape you killed him instead of attempting defense by lesser means than lethal. This won't go down well with the DA.
This is when pepper-spray or combat flash light come in handy. You can start with a lesser response than shooting that may well allow flight.
Originally Posted by B94
I would like to know if - do you have to fight?
I understand that if there is a disparity of force you can use your gun to defend yourself. But what if there is no disparity of force, being that it appears to be an even match.
My example is that a BG wants to fight you but you decline and try to leave. But the BG has you trapped with no escape. The BG has no weapons except fists. Can you draw and shoot if the BG won’t move out of your way so you can leave or do you have to fight?
No you can't. Practically speaking, the cops will arrive and find a body with no weapon who you "say" wanted to fight you with his fists and even though you were the same size, physical shape you killed him instead of attempting defense by lesser means than lethal. This won't go down well with the DA.
This is when pepper-spray or combat flash light come in handy. You can start with a lesser response than shooting that may well allow flight.
It seems that from what I have read this is very true. In effect it allows the attacker the option of choosing the weapon that you are allowed to use to protect yourself from their attack.
I carry a good sized Hellfighter tactical flashlight and the Kimber Pepper device. The OC spray in the weak hand and the light in the strong hand used for a hammer strike in the ready position would be first, Transition to gun if need be.
The way I look at this situation is, he doesn't have a weapon right now whats to say he doesn't have one hidden under his clothes? Its possible that he doesn't want to draw attention to himself and keeps it hidden unless it is needed. Now if someone will not let you go and is attempting to fight you I believe that deadly force isn't required pull out your phone while keeping an eye on him and hold down the 9 button which is usually programed to dial 911. From here use your judgement and do everything you can do to not fight. If he starts towards you pull your weapon keep the distance between you.
My .02c is I'm not going to have been the aggressor in this situation. I'm a big guy but I'm not going fisticuffs on purpose. The fact that I have a gun and this person could get it if I'm compromised means I'm avoiding that at all costs. I'll draw down on him and hopefully its situation over. He advances, he's getting shot. That would constitute fear of grave injury or death. The way I see it, if someone advances while looking down the business end of a gun, they intend great harm.
The problem with "fighting" because someone else, out of the blue wants to "fight" you, is that you are arguably
not acting in self defense, but you are engaging in voluntary mutual combat. Every act of force, every punch,
every kick, every bite you make is your own willful act to perpetuate the combat.
How long exactly do you figure you can trade violence tit-for-tat and then, SUDDENLY, employ deadly force and
still be morally and legally justified?
"Well, officer, these two guys of exactly the same weight and age were punching each other for a few minutes,
then that guy reached for a gun we never knew he had, and shot the other guy, twice in the chest, and twice in the head."
In CCW classes I've taken, it was impressed upon me that you CANNOT instigate a conflict
and then decide to shoot your opponent because you are losing.
Who ARE these guys who have people who "want to fight" them so ferociously, and yet
announce themselves ever so politely? It seems I have never gotten THOSE attackers!
I took the original post to mean if you are attacked by someone who was unarmed. That is what I was replying to in my post earlier. In that case you are not given a choice. Are you restricted to less than lethal force in defending yourself? If so then you are indeed being forced to fight if you choose to defend yourself. The attacker has limited your response by his choice of unarmed attack.
Sorry, but I'm a 62 year old guy. If I'm assaulted by some tweaker or crackhead, I'm just going to shoot him. I'm too old to be trading punches with anybody. If I go down, I could lose my weapon and at that point anything might happen.
If I can't find a way to walk away from the issue, then the other guy is going to get himself shot. I don't like that choice and will try anything to avoid it, but if left with no other option, I'll shoot. It is also easier to defend yourself and your actions in a courtroom if you are the only one left who can still talk about the incident.
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