Do you have to fight?

[Guantes]

I think you're getting into the realm of unintended consequences, that may be due to factors that you have no way of knowing, therefor should not be responsible for.

[DefensiveCarry.com]

[WHEC724]

Okay, so. Your SA has failed you and you are trapped by your twin, or someone so nearly like you, that there is no disparity of force issue, and he has decided that your offer of a beer or a tenspot is not what he wants.. He just wants to fight. You. Period.

Now, if I use what I know will stop him, a head butt to the face, he might die when he crashes to the ground. And then I'm up for manslaughter.

So, instead, I knee him to the groin, oops, he hit his head on the sink, and now he's dead from that. Same deal.. Manslaughter.

Okay so that won't work, so I decide to kick him in the knee, and I've managed to dislocate it. He has a heart attack... Shoot, foiled again! I'm in the pokey.

So, I spray him. (thanks for buying that for me Gman) I didn't know he was also an asthmatic like myself (I should have known, no disparity of force, OP, and all that), and he starts having an asthma attack. I call 911 but he dies anyway enroute... Here I am in the pokey again.

So, having nearly run the gamut of my utility belt, I come against my last resort... a feather! That's it, I can tickle him to death... well not to death... but just enough so I can get away. Well, maybe it could work.

All of the posts here have seemingly sound reasoning behind them. They vary from shoot the guy, to an arm bar, to mace, to saps, to ZZZZaps.

Technically, if I train in self defense and he hasn't (which violates the rules of the OP, but let's pretend anyway), I now have superior "firepower" and the ability to maim or kill him... the lawyers will, of course, find this out. Suddenly, I'm in gaol again.

I need Kirk to hack the simulator, because this is Kobiashi Maru.

The final option is to just fight the guy in the same way he fights me, I guess.

We'll be like the Rock'em Sock'em Robots... only, of course, nobody's block will be knocked off.

Sigh...

♪♫ Mama, put my guns in the ground,
I can't shoot them anymore.... ♪♫

You could always try a hug.

Seriously, a fight is bad juju. Don't be surprised if the jerk tries to sue you after you beat his butt - he wasn't that nice of a guy to begin with, right? You may as well put the best hurtin that you can on him. For me, the concept of non-lethal force will involve violence that would turn all of but the strongest of stomachs. After all, I spared his life.

[tcox4freedom]

There sure has been a whole lot of pretty good advice here. Biker, Guantes, oakchas, kelcarry and a host of others have done a great job.

Overall, this has been a GREAT thread! But, it seems we've avoided the obvious. (Just because you have a gun, you most likely will NOT have shoot anybody.)

Most people who have had to resort to letting the BG know they were armed ended the situation without having to shoot anyone. Sure there is the chance a BG will not back down if he sees you going for your gun. But, most badguys are really sheep in wolves clothing when it comes to a potential victim fighting back.

One this is certain; "complience" does NOT guarantee the BG wil not try to hurt or KILL you! For this reason, you should ALWAYS be prepared to FIGHT!

So OP, you most likely will not have to fight. But, if you are NOT willing to fight, are you willing to DIE?

(That's the real question that one needs to ask.)

-

[shockwave]

Overall, this has been a GREAT thread! But, it seems we've avoided the obvious. (Just because you have a gun, you most likely will NOT have shoot anybody.)

Very good point, tcox. If Professor Gary Kleck's analysis is correct, then, statistically speaking, a firearm on your person will satisfactorily resolve 99 cases out of 100 in your favor. Of course, we train for that pesky 1 percent, but you are correct to note that the wide body of evidence before us indicates that the BGs will not encourage a demonstration of how much firepower you have on tap.

And, this does raise the point that, to a BG, a .22 and a .45 both look equally uninviting.

What the BG will see is the fact that you are armed. Whether it's a glimpse of your holster, the barrel of your gun, or the sound of your shotgun being racked, in a sense it's all the same thing: "Do you really want a piece of this?"

Regular readers of Armed Citizen know that the answer is usually "no."

To a lesser extent, statistics on crime also suggest that a vigorous, forceful defense promotes a successful outcome. Simple resistance on the part of the defender changes the script. The BG normally doesn't want a knock-down, drag-out fight over the $20 in your pocket. He just wants the cash without trouble.

We train for other circumstances, which are generally rare and speaking only for myself I can say that I genuinely enjoy training for its own sake. Learning to defend against unarmed and armed attack is thrilling - the adrenaline rush of experiencing a serious attack and seeing the opponent hitting the floor always feels good. With good technique and timing, you don't need much size or power, just the right move done in the right way. This clip from 6:00 to 7:00 is a nice demonstration.

[Hiram25]

To young to die
To old to take an ass whoopin
I'm going to shoot you

I'll go with this one!

[kelcarry]

Hey Guantes: In your reply you say "you MAY be drawn into a fight". In my comments I say "I have NEVER had a fight in my life" (and this goes for anyone I know who am related to). Guess I am just fortunate or smarter or wiser than most, or do something right that many of you cannot seem to do or perceive, but my "NEVER" trumps your "May". Always "what if" but it still escapes me.

[Guantes]

Some people win the lottery too, but most do not. Some people are called "Lucky" for a reason.

[sniper58]

Put me in this category too!

[TedBeau]

Two, is it equivalent to brandishing to tell someone you are going to shoot them? Rather than draw, can I say "I don't want to fight, but if you attack me, I'll shoot you" and avoid the problems with brandishing? Now the BG has been informed the fight won't be "on common ground." Does it help your case at all if the BG, having been warned that you are armed, still presses a physical attack? Would one be justified in shooting to stop such an attack?

This is a good question, I think I am going to start a list of these type questions to ask at my CPL renewal class.
I have seen the three letter abbriviation A,O,J, having to do with ability, opportunity, and jepardy (or sometimes changed to INTENT instead of jepardy) as a guide:

http://corneredcat.com/Legal/AOJ.aspx

It would seem that the fact that someone advances on you after being warned that you are armed would satisfy the jepardy or intent portion of the fomula. If they are determined to attack you knowing your armed then they intend to do serious harm to you.

[WHEC724]

Some people win the lottery too, but most do not. Some people are called "Lucky" for a reason.

I find that the older that I get, the "luckier" I get. Coincidence?

[Guantes]

To a certain degree, you make your own luck, or at least influence it.

[MadMac]

Hey Guantes: In your reply you say "you MAY be drawn into a fight". In my comments I say "I have NEVER had a fight in my life" (and this goes for anyone I know who am related to). Guess I am just fortunate or smarter or wiser than most, or do something right that many of you cannot seem to do or perceive, but my "NEVER" trumps your "May". Always "what if" but it still escapes me.

Well, butter my butt and call me Lucky! I guess I'm another lottery winner. I did get in a scuffle once in middle school about 40 years ago. That's about it. Since then, I've served in the military until retirement and still travel extensively. I have been in bars, pubs, saloons, watering holes, juke joints, dockside taverns, cafes, boozers, road houses, gin joints, grog shops, ale houses, dives, dumps, greasy spoons, inns, public houses, and tap rooms on every continent except Africa. (I am eliminating that exception this summer.) I am leaving for China next week. I have never been dragged into a fight in all those years and all those places.

I am not saying it won't happen next week, or even tomorrow. I will have to deal with the situation if and when it arises. That said, as much as some people make their own luck, I suspect at least an equal number of people create their own "unluck".

[laguna0seca]

In any circumstance, I think shooting a single attacker is gonna be a tough sell to a jury. If it comes to it, I am walk/running away. But, I am a Marine, so I mean I am...."attacking in a different direction"


PS. MadMac...what does it say on your avatar under the picture???

[sentioch]

Know the laws, but also know that any time you shoot someone in self defense there will probably be consequences. Even if you acted legally, you will still probably be subject to investigation, media coverage, disarmed by the police, possibly jailed, possibly fired from your job and possibly need to get a lawyer to defend yourself...and in fact it's possible that you might be locked away for murder if you aren't able to prove that you acted legally. So when it comes down to it, if the knowledge that you might possibly be disarmed, jailed, fired and imprisoned seems worth it in comparison to the threat you are currently facing, then this is the best possible test of "when you should use your weapon."

[21bubba]

Well, butter my butt and call me Lucky! I guess I'm another lottery winner. I did get in a scuffle once in middle school about 40 years ago. That's about it. Since then, I've served in the military until retirement and still travel extensively. I have been in bars, pubs, saloons, watering holes, juke joints, dockside taverns, cafes, boozers, road houses, gin joints, grog shops, ale houses, dives, dumps, greasy spoons, inns, public houses, and tap rooms on every continent except Africa. (I am eliminating that exception this summer.) I am leaving for China next week. I have never been dragged into a fight in all those years and all those places.

I am not saying it won't happen next week, or even tomorrow. I will have to deal with the situation if and when it arises. That said, as much as some people make their own luck, I suspect at least an equal number of people create their own "unluck".

Maybe it's the butter on your butt that has kept you out of a fight.