Do you have to fight?

This is a discussion on Do you have to fight? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by retsupt99 I'm an old fart... I don't really want to fight anyone... I'm not going to be held against my will... If ...

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Thread: Do you have to fight?

  1. #106
    VIP Member Array wmhawth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post
    I'm an old fart...
    I don't really want to fight anyone...
    I'm not going to be held against my will...
    If you threaten to physically harm me...you've made a poor victim choice.

    If I've done nothing to instigate an incident...you have picked me out for some personal fun...you've made a big mistake.
    I will react quickly and violently, and I'll deal with the aftermath...you won't have to worry about what happens after the incident.
    I'm pretty much with retsup99 here but the real deciding factor will depend upon the assailant. At this stage in my life I'm not about to go mano a mano with some bozo half my age and twice my size. A big part of my overall security program includes doing my best to reduce possibilities that I'll be in places or situations where this might happen to me anyway.

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  3. #107
    Member Array DukeShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by B94 View Post
    I would like to know if - do you have to fight?
    I understand that if there is a disparity of force you can use your gun to defend yourself. But what if there is no disparity of force, being that it appears to be an even match.

    My example is that a BG wants to fight you but you decline and try to leave. But the BG has you trapped with no escape. The BG has no weapons except fists. Can you draw and shoot if the BG won’t move out of your way so you can leave or do you have to fight?
    If i was trapped and was in fear of grave bodily harm/injury or death in TN I have the right to use deadly force to stop the threat. I an not required to HOPE that I can Kung Fu out of a situation like that. I'm a skinny 58 year old and not even close to being up to the task. Even if he was my size & age I'm not going to "try him on".

    I carry for that reason, i don't want to get into a situation where anyone, even bare handed, can injure/maim/kill me.

    Your Old Uncle Duke
    "It's time to nut up or shut up" - Woody Harrelson, "Tallahassee" in "Zombieland"

  4. #108
    Member Array TravisABQ's Avatar
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    So do some of you figure you can "de-escalate" when a dozen thugs decide to kill you because you MIGHT have $5 in your wallet, or just because they don't like your color, or maybe just because it will be fun?

    Do you figure that "going fetal" and ALLOWING four, or three, or even just one adversary to kick one or both knees into uselessness, or dislocating your shoulder or elbows such that once you wake UP to the fact that the attack will not end before you ARE permanently maimed, dead, or unable to draw your gun or keep it from being taken off you as you bleed on the ground?

    Unlike some of you, I don't get into fights as a form of recreation. I don't think I've been in any fights as an adult, just sudden, unprovoked, violent assaults, and attempts to kill me. I really don't like it.

    If there is some statute anywhere in these United States that obligates me to endure a sustained battery before I do anything about it, point it out.

    I think we have seen enough videos of people getting seriously attacked to know that you cannot count on anybody doing a darn thing to help you.

  5. #109
    Ex Member Array MadMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TravisABQ View Post
    Unlike some of you, I don't get into fights as a form of recreation. I don't think I've been in any fights as an adult, just sudden, unprovoked, violent assaults, and attempts to kill me. I really don't like it.
    I am certainly not sure of your lifestyle or where you live, but if this is what goes on in your adult life, you need a serious upgrade.

  6. #110
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frogbones View Post
    Well according to Black Knife "go learn to fight it might save your ass one day. "
    I meant that my skills don't compare to the many highly-trained military and law enforcement types here, not that I'm incapable or useless in a defensive situation.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  7. #111
    Member Array TravisABQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMac View Post
    I am certainly not sure of your lifestyle or where you live, but if this is what goes on in your adult life, you need a serious upgrade.
    You totally missed the point.

    It is comforting to theorize that incidents happen because an "argument" got "out of hand", or that in some convoluted way, the person who gets killed "had it coming". Most anti-gun people presume that bad things "just don't happen" to good people. Ergo good people don't need guns, and bad people shouldn't have them either.

    There are some things that you can control, and some things you CAN'T.

    You can be white, live in a "nice" house, not look ostentatiously prosperous, not close bars, not go to 7-11 at 1AM, and if you live long enough, some predator, somewhere may decide you look like food, and bring deadly violence to you. Even if it seems like a "simple" robbery, money may well have little to do with the payoff that he gets by shooting, stabbing, or beating you. You do NOT get to choose what his full motivation is.

    I don't get into fights, don't have much in the way of angry conflicts. The situations I've had were out of the blue, and there was not much "dialoging" to be done. We all KNEW why we were there. The incidents lasted SECONDS, from beginning to either escape or defeat.

    If you smugly believe that trouble CAN'T come to you unprovoked, then going armed really is just an expensive affectation.

  8. #112
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    It seems to be a persistent english to english translation problem when people say "fight".

    Everyone knows what they are saying but other people only know it from the terms they understand.

    You say "fight" and know what you mean...but I can interpret that in many ways. Two idiots who can't control themselves from making rude comments about the other who settle things with fists...a criminal setting up a mark for an approach using conversation to close and engage...an actual criminal assault based on race...

    What is a fight to you may be called "criminal action" to someone else, and thus when someone says "I don't fight..." it makes sense to them - but not to you!

    Their is a difference between a fight and a criminal attacking you.

    The first I don't engage in because I CAN control it.

    The second is a random event, and will be responded to with appropriate force (however flexible that is depending on the situation...).

  9. #113
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    As others have said, I am not looking for a fight, but in a disparaging force condition, I will draw and give you the chance to leave dodge. Elsewise if you press the matter, you and or your partner will get shot and there will not be a lot of talk other than me calling 911 while you are on the ground bleeding out. It it is you alone, you still get shot. You threaten me and I go to condition RED. I do not have to retreat or fight in Georgia or in my home.
    Praise the Lord my Rock, who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle --- Psalm 144
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  10. #114
    Senior Member Array Frogbones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    I meant that my skills don't compare to the many highly-trained military and law enforcement types here, not that I'm incapable or useless in a defensive situation.
    I know just hackin :).

    My incident (in my post) was when I was 16 at a bowling alley.

    I haven't had a "fight" in more than 14yrs. I intend to keep that # increasing.

  11. #115
    Senior Member Array 2edgesword's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    or person with a medical condition such as a cardiac patient, a person on blood thinners... should be expected to take any part of a beating before using lethal force. Good gracious, use some common sense. That is a disparity of force!
    That simplifies it for me...I just shoot him ;).

    Seriously, this is an interesting dilemma for anyone that carries a deadly force weapon (firearm or knife). The idea of force continuum is all fine in the classroom but on the street, where you happen to be on that continuum can change in a milli-second. An empty hand encounter even with someone that is your match physically can very well be a deadly encounter.

    I'm near senior citizen status, have a heart condition and all of 5'6", 155lbs. I've also got eighteen years of MA training and BB's in two martial arts. If somehow I found myself in the situation where I'm back into a corner (all the deescalation options are used up and flight is no longer an option for me) I'm not giving you the luxury of taking the first shot. I'm going to do everything in my power to permanently disable you as quickly and effectively as possible with whatever tools I have available to me.

    The OP stated you are backed into a corner. I interpret that to mean you didn't start the incident, you've done everything you can to deescalate and there are no other options but to fight. I don't interpret "fight" as a prizefight. On the street I interpret fight as a confrontation where no rules apply and death or serious injury can occur.

    I would agree with the premise that if you stay away from places where stupid people gather to do stupid things you can avoid the vast majority of "situations". On the other hand our "legal" system has sissified our society. You're suppose to kiss butt, take the first punch, wait to see a weapon, etc., etc., etc. following the force continuum. When I hear the story of two kids taken to the principles office after a fight and both students are suspended with no regard for who was the initial aggressor it has me shaking my head. You may not know you're backed into a corner until the corner hits you in the rear end. To paraphrase Kelly McCann the final confirmation that you've been attacked is ... you've been attack. To extend that, the final confirmation that you're facing deadly force is you're dead.
    Martial Blade Concepts, Jiu-Jitsu & Eskrima NRA, GOA, NYSRPA, LIF, Old Bethpage Rifle & Pistol Club

  12. #116
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    I agree with you in that if I have tried to leave, de-escalate, etc, I'm not waiting for no bell to start things. Firstus with the mostus.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  13. #117
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2edgesword View Post
    The OP stated you are backed into a corner.
    Yup. Being backed into a corner seals it. That's force and the threat of force, right there. Combined with disparity of force, the message is unequivocal. No mercy, at that point. The game is already on, like it or not. Get busy livin', or get busy dyin'.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  14. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frogbones View Post
    Well according to Black Knife "go learn to fight it might save your ass one day. "
    Holier than thou Ninja warriors like this make me sick!

    I'm 59; no cartilage left in either knee, so escape and evasion is not an option; back back, so getting into a wrestling match isn't going to happen; bad shoulder that pretty much takes the boxing aspect out of the picture; so yeah, like I'm going to open up a fresh can of whoop-ass on some guy.

    You want to fight me? Go ahead! I'm fighting for my life--using any tool available--period!
    Retired USAF E-8. Remember: You're being watched!
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

  15. #119
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    People who wait to be "Backed into a corner" before acting have a poor understanding of use of force rules, and thus will allow themselves to be placed at a position of grave disadvantage under a mistaken belief they have to be in such a position before taking action and defending themselves.

    If people chose to have such a lack of understanding, for whatever reason, so be it.

    If people aren't as willing to understand use of force rules as well as learning how to use that force, then they can accept an advantage deficit which accompanies the lack of understanding as well.

    Cold? Yes.

    But true.

    Buzzards have to eat, same as worms.

  16. #120
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    I will run from a fight. I will run for my life, I just won't beg for it. I f in such a dire situation, I will live with the consequences, rather than die with the consequences.

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