Do you have to fight?

This is a discussion on Do you have to fight? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by MitchellCT People who wait to be "Backed into a corner" before acting have a poor understanding of use of force rules ... ...

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  1. #121
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    People who wait to be "Backed into a corner" before acting have a poor understanding of use of force rules ...
    To be fair, we should recognize that very often being backed into a corner happens in the blink of an eye. In a relatively slowly developing situation, I'll agree with you that the person's misconstruing of the legalities allowing defense against crimes is getting in their way of surviving them. Anyone ought to be able to see a threat made from a distance. But that presumes such encounters appear threatening from distances that allow defensive steps to be started before being backed into the corner. But in a quickly moving situation, I'll bet a good percentage of people simply get ambushed and surprised to the degree of not realizing their options until the options are gone. "Backed" into a corner can simply be stopped against a wall by two thugs, and that can occur quickly on any sidewalk anywhere.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
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  3. #122
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Frogbones View Post
    Well according to Black Knife "go learn to fight it might save your ass one day. "
    Holier than thou Ninja warriors like this make me sick!
    He was twitting me, earlier. No sanctimony intended, apparently.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  4. #123
    Senior Member Array 2edgesword's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    People who wait to be "Backed into a corner" before acting have a poor understanding of use of force rules,
    So it's the victims fault!

    Maybe you get backed into a corner and should have seen it coming. Or maybe you get backed into a corner with little if any forewarning. In either case you're in the corner. We have been sucked into the idea that in a violent confrontation there is a luxury of time and opportunity to make clear and precise judgments about what is or isn't the "necessary" and "appropriate" level of force. We accept the idea that if the aggressor doesn't have an obvious weapon or isn't Goliath it means you must resort to mano y mano. Our modern system of justice has degenerated to embrace the above attitude but it displays an ignorance of the dynamics and potential consequences of empty hand physical confrontations, AND what is necessary to deterrent young thugs and bullies.

    I'm not a frail old man but neither am I a resilient twenty-five year old. At one time I thought nothing of getting it on on the street or in the dojo. Those days are long gone. If an aggressor wants to get it he should be prepared for an unfair fight that's going to cost him dearly. I get injured in a fight and it could be an injury for life. I've got enough aches and pains already. I get punched in the head, it knocks loose some plaque and I might have stroke.
    Martial Blade Concepts, Jiu-Jitsu & Eskrima NRA, GOA, NYSRPA, LIF, Old Bethpage Rifle & Pistol Club

  5. #124
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2edgesword View Post
    So it's the victims fault!
    It's the willfully ignorant's fault.

    If the victim happens to be such, they YES.

    If people are interested in learning the ROE's for the use of force in self defense, go take Ayoob's MAG-20 class on the justified use of deadly force or something similar.

    It's only someone's life on the line, so with such small stakes, I can't imagine why anyone would bother...

    If people want to persist in your...mistaken?...incorrect?...beliefs about when and what kind of force is justified, feel free.

    I lost patience with people who make excuses instead of bothering to learn what they don't know, so you are I are going to have to disagree.

    (Hows that non-lethal use of a knife thing going for you these days?)

  6. #125
    Senior Member Array 2edgesword's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    It's the willfully ignorant's fault.

    If the victim happens to be such, they YES.

    If people are interested in learning the ROE's for the use of force in self defense, go take Ayoob's MAG-20 class on the justified use of deadly force or something similar.

    It's only someone's life on the line, so with such small stakes, I can't imagine why anyone would bother...

    If people want to persist in your...mistaken?...incorrect?...beliefs about when and what kind of force is justified, feel free.

    I lost patience with people who make excuses instead of bothering to learn what they don't know, so you are I are going to have to disagree.

    (Hows that non-lethal use of a knife thing going for you these days?)
    No one is defending ignorance. I'm very well aware of the laws regarding justified use of deadly physical force. I'm also very well versed in situational awareness and avoidance of a conflict.

    The question was what happens if you're backed into a corner. The answer isn't "don't get backed into a corner".

    My response, given my situation, may be a mistaken and incorrect in the mind of someone caught up in the crap we call a criminal justice system. Too often it's so-called "justice" for the criminal and being screwed on the part of the honest, law abiding citizen exercising his right to defend themselves.

    I have lost patience dealing with arrogant individuals that think because they have a bunch of letters following their name it means they have cornered the market on what constitutes truth, justice, right and wrong. We've got a huge group of them that make up a large percentage of those occupying seats of power in the Senate and House that have managed to totally screw up this country, with many of them thinking (as you apparently do) that they know what's best for the so-called "willfully ignorant".

    No one is looking to justify walking up on another individual and putting a bullet in them. That wasn't the point of the OP or any of the responses I've read. Having said that when we as a society believe it's o.k. for an thug with bad intentions to corner an individual for no reason other then to intimidate, harass or rob them, and that individual being cornered is suppose to engage in a "fair" fight, we've given the criminals, thugs and bullies the advantage and placed a huge burden on the innocent, law abiding individual trying to defend themselves.
    Last edited by 2edgesword; February 27th, 2011 at 09:41 PM.
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  7. #126
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2edgesword View Post
    No one is defending ignorance. I'm very well aware of the laws regarding justified use of deadly physical force. I'm also very well versed in situational awareness and avoidance of a conflict.
    Then you'd realize the whole consept of "backed into a corner" is one that is flawed from the outset.


    Quote Originally Posted by 2edgesword View Post
    The question was what happens if you're backed into a corner. The answer isn't "don't get backed into a corner".
    The answer is to know when you are allowed to preemptively strike to preempt an assault, and thus not be backed into a corner.

    http://www.nycourts.gov/cji/1-Genera...ical_Force.pdf

    See the end of page 2 through page 3 starting at "Initial Agressor"


    Quote Originally Posted by 2edgesword View Post
    I have lost patience dealing with arrogant individuals that think because they have a bunch of letters following their name it means they have cornered the market on what constitutes truth, justice, right and wrong.
    Hey...don't go ascribing truth and justice to anything involving me...I don't cotton to that stuff for professional reasons.

    [QUOTE=2edgesword;1881938]We've got a huge group of them that make up a large percentage of those occupying seats of power in the Senate and House that have managed to totally screw up this country, with many of them thinking (as you apparently do) that they know what's best for the so-called "willfully ignorant".[QUOTE=2edgesword;1881938]

    I don't have any part in making the laws, especially the ones you live under in your state. If you don't like it, move, organize or file suit to change the laws.

    You can hope for the world that should be...but must deal with the world that is if it is ever to be what it should be.

    I don't deal in hope. I don't deal in what should be.

    I deal in what is - and that is a society which has several hundred years of jurisprudence dealing with what happens when people injure other people.

    Sometimes in self defense, other times in criminal action.

    You want to defend yourself in that society, you understand its rules and how to use them to your advantage - or become a criminal.

    Further, complaining about the rules society has set in terms of use of force is a lot like complaining that guns, ammo & training cost money, or that women seek high status, high income combat jocks with good conversational skills.

    You can argue about it, say it's not fair...but it doesn't change the facts on the ground that you have to deal with.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2edgesword View Post
    No one is looking to justify walking up on another individual and putting a bullet in them. That wasn't the point of the OP or any of the responses I've read. Having said that when we as a society believe it's o.k. for an thug with bad intentions to corner an individual for no reason other then to intimidate, harass or rob them, and that individual being cornered is suppose to engage in a "fair" fight, we've given the criminals, thugs and bullies the advantage and placed a huge burden on the innocent, law abiding individual trying to defend themselves.
    Anyone who thinks you have to give criminals a fair fight - in any respect - is willfully ignorant.

    They have deliberately gone down an hypothetical path that is divorced from reality and ends in suicide.

    I will hold it up to what it is - suicide. If that bothers people, so be it.

    Those who know the rules of engagement in their given area will react promptly, ruthlessly and correctly when confronted with an imminent, otherwise unavoidable threat of death or grave harm. They will have the initiative advantage because they know when they can act...much sooner than people who don't know will react.

    Those who do not will dither, waiver and wait too long - be backed into a corner - and then fight from a disadvantaged position...resulting in effectively assisted suicide.

    It isn't anything to me what people chose to do once provided with the information.

  8. #127
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    So, does the information you linked to apply to all states, your state (CT I presume), your state + NY (the source of the material)? Or what?
    It could be worse.
    "The History of our Revolution will be one continued Lye from one end to the other."
    John Adams
    "A gun is kind of like a parachute. If you need one and don't have one, you'll probably never need one again".

  9. #128
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    So, does the information you linked to apply to all states, your state (CT I presume), your state + NY (the source of the material)? Or what?
    It's NY Jury instructions.

    CT has similar:

    Initial Aggressor
    There is no legal definition of "initial aggressor," so it is proper to instruct the jury to apply the ordinary meaning of the words. State v. Ramos, 261 Conn. 156, 164-69 (2002); State v. Whitford, 260 Conn. 610, 620-24 (2002).

    It is improper to define "initial aggressor" simply as the first person to use force. State v. Jimenez, 228 Conn. 335, 341 (1994) (such an instruction forecloses the jury from considering the claim of self-defense at all). In State v. Corchado, 188 Conn. 653, 666-68 (1982), the court included "directed verdict" language in defining the "initial aggressor" as one who makes "any direct personal assault . . . in anger" or one who "deliberately places himself in a position where he has reason to believe his presence would provoke trouble" or as one who "leaves a quarrel to go to his home to arm himself, and then returns to the scene of the quarrel and kills the other person."

    But more focused on what the court should NOT instruct, rather than giving background. Counse is free to submit more detailed instructions and in a trial case, they do.

    Those notes for CT are just the bare bones. The Judicial department isn't going to do the work for lawyers.

    As to other states...

    Well. I'll let other people check out the judicial department's websites for their own states and check out the jury instruction forms.

    (Because Jesus would cry if people went to the library and...you know...researched for legit material instead of reading things online...)

  10. #129
    New Member Array 1 Molon Labe's Avatar
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    I thought this might fit into this debate. This happened locally to me and I know all three of these scumbags.
    This is what a man (2 men) and their fist can do to a trained LEO.
    Now I realize this is a little different than the OPers question, he approached them when he was attacked but still, this offers a pretty good arguement of fist being a deadly force. The officer was battling for his life the first 4 days after this happened. Hes now slowely improving.
    I bet he wished he had his gun that day.
    Friends charged in Oklahoma City bar fight that left off-duty police officer partially paralyzed | NewsOK.com


    Friends charged in Oklahoma City bar fight that left off-duty police officer partially paralyzed
    Joshua B. Rinken, 28, of Norman; Jimmy Dan Smith, 28, of Tuttle; and Cadmio Antonio Lopez, 31, of Newcastle, face up to 17 years in prison each if convicted of both felony counts in the beating of an Oklahoma City officer.
    BY NOLAN CLAY nclay@opubco.com Oklahoman Published: February 25, 2011

    An oil-field worker and two friends were charged Friday in connection with a bar fight that partially paralyzed an off-duty Oklahoma City police officer.


    Friends charged in Oklahoma City bar fight that left off-duty police officer partially paralyzed

    The three men were charged in Oklahoma County District Court with maiming and conspiracy to commit assault and battery upon a police officer. They face up to 17 years in prison each if convicted of both felony counts.

    Joshua B. Rinken, 28, of Norman; Jimmy Dan Smith, 28, of Tuttle; and Cadmio Antonio Lopez, 31, of Newcastle, remain in the Oklahoma County jail. Bail is denied.

    They are accused in the maiming count of hitting officer Chad Peery repeatedly with their fists in the face, causing a broken neck, paralyzing him from his shoulders down. They are accused in the conspiracy count of agreeing among themselves to assault the police officer.

    Peery, 34, was hurt late Feb. 15 as he escorted the men out of Dan O'Brien's Public House in northwest Oklahoma City. Employees who knew Peery was a police officer sought his help because of a disturbance inside the bar.

    Peery can speak and bend his arms, prosecutor Scott Rowland said. He also has feelings on the top of his hands and the bottom of his feet. He remains hospitalized.

    His mother, Jan Peery, said Thursday, He's a fighter. He's courageous. And he's going to work through whatever he needs to.

    Police said Rinken, the oil-field worker, started the fight, hitting the officer in the face at the doorway of the bar. The beginning of the assault was recorded by a surveillance camera.

    Witnesses said Smith and Rinken punched the officer while Lopez kept others from interceding, police reported. Rinken is seen at one point holding the obviously unconscious officer from behind and in an upright position, police reported.

    Rinken is then seen dropping or throwing Officer Peery down to the ground, police reported.

    Police said all three men knew Peery was a police officer before the assault. Police said Lopez admitted to holding other people back so Rinken could have a fair fight with Peery.

    Rinken was the first of the three men to challenge the denial of bail. Oklahoma County District Judge Ray C. Elliott refused to allow his release.

    I think the evidence overall screams out this answer anyone he comes in contact with is a potential victim, the judge said at the end of a bail hearing Friday.

    testimony at hearing

    The problems at Dan O'Brien's on Feb. 15 began after Rinken tried to get a woman to kiss him, pinning her at one point against a wall, according to testimony Friday. She told a male friend who reported it to bar employees.

    According to testimony and police reports put into evidence during the hearing, Rinken has been in other fights, uses steroids and once told an ex-girlfriend he loved trouble and wasn't scared of jail.

    Police reported finding 52 steroid pills and five empty beer cans in Rinken's Ford truck when he was arrested at a different bar after the attack.

    One ex-girlfriend sought a victim's protective order against him in 2009, saying he had hit her in the past and was threatening to beat up her new boyfriend. Sarah Harris wrote in her request for a protective order that Rinken said to her: It's gonna be fun. Relay that.

    Another ex-girlfriend reported to Oklahoma City police last September that Rinken was making rude and threatening phone calls to her. She told police “she is very afraid because he carries a pistol, is a heavy steroid user (and) will go into rages, according to a police report.

    Rinken was arrested in January 2009 in Moore, according to another police report. A customer at Buffalo Wild Wings in Moore said Rinken began cursing at him for no reason, then struck him in the face and left the bar, police reported.

    Supporters of Rinken wrote affidavits on his behalf. A Minco pastor, Aaron Warren, wrote Rinken is a great father and provider to his two sons.

    To a pastor, this shows me a young, responsible man. Other characteristics that I have seen in Josh's life are a loving, joyous and kind nature, the pastor wrote.

  11. #130
    Senior Member Array 2edgesword's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    Then you'd realize the whole consept of "backed into a corner" is one that is flawed from the outset.
    No, what I realize is the difference between reality and fantasy i.e., it can't happen to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    The answer is to know when you are allowed to preemptively strike to preempt an assault, and thus not be backed into a corner.
    O.k. superman, whatever you say.
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  12. #131
    Member Array DukeShooter's Avatar
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    I can't assume someone that is beating on me is going to stop when i say i've had enough or that they will stop short of inflicting grave bodily harm/perm. Injury or killing me. So I carry a gun, don't provoke anyone, avoid situations where I could be involved in an altercation and generally act in a safe, aware of my surroundings manner.

    The Duke
    "It's time to nut up or shut up" - Woody Harrelson, "Tallahassee" in "Zombieland"

  13. #132
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2edgesword View Post
    O.k. superman, whatever you say.
    Just keep working the bio-mechanical cutting and everything will be fine...

  14. #133
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Mitchell,

    Thanks for the clarification on the jury instructions... And, I agree with you about the libraries... But, not having the catalog of the NYPL to access (except through interlibrary loan), I do have to get a lot of reading material on line. Our local library is rebuilding after the floods of 2008.
    It could be worse.
    "The History of our Revolution will be one continued Lye from one end to the other."
    John Adams
    "A gun is kind of like a parachute. If you need one and don't have one, you'll probably never need one again".

  15. #134
    New Member Array adam12's Avatar
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    OK, real situation: On vacation in Florida in a rural area. I am 66 and my wife is 70. Jacked up pickup with 4 guys comes up behind me fast. After riding my bumper for awhile I motion them to come around. The pass and swerve around me and then slam on the brakes while motioning me to pull over. I took my pistol from the side door, still holstered, (I have a CCW w/reciprocity with Florida) and placed it on the console between my wife and me, not exactly brandishing it but not caring if they saw it or not. Apparently the guy in back did because they pulled off and then took off in the other direction. Situation over but I wasn't about to become a victim and would've used whatever force I needed to protect myself and my wife. Never know where/when this stuff will happen.
    Last edited by adam12; March 9th, 2011 at 08:29 AM.

  16. #135
    Distinguished Member Array Jason Storm's Avatar
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    If he has me trapped, I have practical unarmed options to facilitate my escape or allow me to followup, although I am armed. By all means, do not allow him to get hold of your sidearm. Also be familiar w/ retention techniques. :
    -headbutt
    -knee or kick to the groin
    -box slap to the ears
    -eye jab/eye gouge
    -foot stomps
    -knee to the peroneal nerve
    -knuckle jab to throat
    -elbow to the jaw or face
    -palm strike to the nose
    -web hand strike to the throat/knife hand or hammerfist strike to the side of the neck (use only when your life is in danger since it is lethal)
    -biting (use only when there are no other options since this opens you up to exposure to bloodborne pathogens)
    -OC spray [if you have one (I also carry one), this is the best means since the effects are temporary; however, be ready for a followup plan since it may not work on everyone]
    -grabbing/squeezing (larynx/testicles)

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