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Do you have to fight?

19K views 167 replies 72 participants last post by  mlr1m 
#1 ·
I would like to know if - do you have to fight?
I understand that if there is a disparity of force you can use your gun to defend yourself. But what if there is no disparity of force, being that it appears to be an even match.

My example is that a BG wants to fight you but you decline and try to leave. But the BG has you trapped with no escape. The BG has no weapons except fists. Can you draw and shoot if the BG won’t move out of your way so you can leave or do you have to fight?
 
#2 ·
You seem to have a bunch of bad choices here. If you are armed and the BG insists on fighting, what happens if you end up going to the floor and he gets his hands on your weapon? You cannot let that happen under any circumstances so a physical fight is out of the question. So you should continue to try to calm him down, insist you don't want to fight and that you just wish leave. If it becomes clear that the BG is not going to let this happen and physical contact is imminent, you will have to draw your weapon as a legal elevation of force. But you cannot shoot unless the BG attempts to draw a weapon or (stupidly) attempts to attack you physically. Maybe others will have a different outlook...I'd be very interested to hear them.
 
#3 ·
I'm an old fart...
I don't really want to fight anyone...
I'm not going to be held against my will...
If you threaten to physically harm me...you've made a poor victim choice.

If I've done nothing to instigate an incident...you have picked me out for some personal fun...you've made a big mistake.
I will react quickly and violently, and I'll deal with the aftermath...you won't have to worry about what happens after the incident.:nono:
 
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#67 ·
I agree with you. As a 100% disabled vet I can't fight anymore. I won't start one and will avoid one if possible. If not possible I will prevail
 
#4 ·
No, you don't have to fight. If a physical fight starts, its a gun fight, because you brought a gun. I am 25, a combat veteran, and a AD Marine so I am in decent shape, but if I am a place I am carrying, I am not going to opt for some fisti-cuffs. If you have a reasonable fear that he is going to cause serious/mortal harm to you, you have the right to use appropriate force to defend yourself.

Of course the key is avoiding such situations anyways. You can't shoot him just for not moving out of your way. But if he is presenting a viable possible lethal threat to you, you have the right to defend yourself
 
#5 ·
I think if you have to ask this question you need to review your state's laws on justification for the use of force, use of lethal force, display of a weapon, and so forth. The basic question is, no matter where you live, whether or not a reasonable person in that situation would be in fear for their life; often stated as does the opponent have the ability to hurt you very very badly if not kill you, are you actually in jeopardy of the opponent doing that, does he actually have the opportunity to act, and sometimes does he have the intent. You also need to know if your state law requires you to attempt to flee and if your state law prohibits you from using a "self defense" legal defense against a murder charge if you did anything whatsoever to precipitate the fight.

My take is that if there is no obvious disparity of force as for example the one mentioned by Retsupt, older guy being attacked by young person, and there is no visible weapon, you probably can't use your gun. Again, it sometimes all depends on exactly what is going on, what has gone on immediately prior. But, in the end, simply put, a reasonable person must be in reasonable fear of imminent (immediate) great bodily harm or death.
 
#6 ·
A cop worries about this situation all the time. However a Cop can not just shoot an unarmed suspect because he is resisiting arrest or is trying to assault him. So what makes a person think that a civilian can do so.

If you are threatened with someone who is just trying to fight you and you have the abilty to defend yourself I don't think you would be justified in shooting him. Being armed has a lot of responsibilties and it is a decision you choose to make. I don't think any LE agency or district attorney's office is going to except your excuse of shooting an unarmed subject because you did not want to defend yourself because you might get your gun taken away. That would be your decesion to carry a gun and this is one of the chances you take in doing so. I suggest you carry pepper spray or learn to defend yourself with your hands.
 
#36 ·
I agree with this post 100%. In our CCW class taught by a former LEO and SWAT agent - you can only escalate one level in a confrontation. He hits you - you can use a kubaton, knife or spray. He produces a knife you may draw your gun. He points a gun at you - you shoot him. (this is in Ohio) This is why I train in martial arts, carry a kubaton, knife and gun. I'm nearing my black belt. I'm no self proclaimed bad ass but if you swing at me more than likely you will miss and I take out your knee. If you strike - go 100% - no half ass garbage. Strike fast and last and with purpose.

Of course you ALWAYS try to disengage. Eat those words. Walk away WITHOUT turning your back. Once violence starts bad things can happen either way. Do your best to avoid it.

Now...IMO....it gets sticky if he tackles you to the ground. You have a gun. You have a knife. Under NO circumstances can you let him grab it! If you have to pull out the gun and strike him in the head with the butt. Buy yourself that precious second to GET TO YOUR FEET. In a fight you never want to be on the ground!! Keep weapons in YOUR hand not his!!

This is a great post but no cut and dry answers...it's all situational. Know your local laws...train to use all options. Remember up tight knees and elbows are the order of the day. Aim for vital targets. Knees, armpit, philtrum, temples, neck, groin. There is no such thing as a "fair fight" on the street. Your goal is to strike fast, hard, disable and disengage.
 
#68 ·
^^^This^^^

Perfectly legal in KY. If someone threatens you with unprovoked physical manually applied violence, you can shoot them. Thus sayeth the AG.
 
#8 ·
You understand that taking a human life is the most serious thing a person can do in this world, right?

Do you really think society is going to just give people a pass every time a bully gets in their way and they just shoot them down?

Let me know how that works out for ya.

Should I Shoot Someone If They Are Unarmed?
 
#10 ·
Wise words indeed.

It seems to me that far too many gun toters are looking at their CCW gun as the "hammer for all nails". Lemme drop a little knowledge on you....it isn't. A gun is a specific tool for a VERY specific job. YOUR responsibility in carrying that particular tool is a great and heavy burden. Period. YOU have the mantle of responsibility NOT to get into trick bags and fights. YOU have the responsibility to be the bigger man and even at the cost of your ego and fear that you might lose man card points...offer to leave or back down, or *GULP* admit that maybe just maye your mother is whatever expletive the big bad bully asserted she might be or that your wife/girlfriend/daughter is a good lay.

As I have mentioned before, it is worth it to me to toss a d-bag ten bucks NOT TO HAVE TO KILL HIM...and that in in the case of an attempted robbery. In a silly ******* contest or a bully running his mouth...let him have his verbal victory. Say things like "Look...I don't want trouble. I really don't." If he lays hands on you, you have the right to defend yourself, but only to the degree that one would reasonably and neccessarily HAVE TO USE to stop the threat. Even a good old fashioned fist fight where you get a fat lip, black eye, maybe even some cracked ribs is NOT immediate danger of death or grave bodily harm. The truth is....the VAST majority of bullies and billy badasses I have ever run across really can't fight anyway. Bigger doesn't always mean badder, and bicesp don't mean they know how to use their ape arms. I know older men in their late sixties who can turn a big strapping thuggos into crying little diaper dumpers.

Yes...there IS a disparity of force which would allow one to employ deadly force againt a clearly superior attacker or group of attackers...age, infirmity, handicap, heart condition...all of those...but two reasonably equally matched guys...no PD or DA or jury is going to buy it. I hate to be the burster of bubbles...but there you have it.

YOU have the responsibility to learn other less-lethal methods of self defense. Pepper spray. Taser. Expandable baton. Leather SAP (where legal). Kubotan. REAL martial arts, not the MMA or "kung-fu-fashionable-crap-of-the-day-at-the-local-krav-maga-chop-sockey-variety" but a REAL fighting skill taught by a real hand to hand defensive tactics instructor. I can tell you from real world experience that the MMA style is awesome for the octagon, but it centers too much on "going to the ground" which is the LAST place you want to be. You need a down and dirty, end the fight NOW style as taught by guys like Michael Janich. Learn it. It also has the advantage of being great excercise.

Remember...your gun can't be the ONLY tool you carry for self defense, because not every situation in which you may find yourself will be a bullet shaped nail. Even if you learn only one or two nasty fast holds, or techniques, and I mean LEARN them, know them and practice them...you will be better off than the vast majority of so-called self-styled tough guys out there.
 
#9 ·
You didn't mention the type of location and if others are present.
Know your local laws.
Sometimes there are no easy answers.

A couple examples:
1. Blast him with OC and then attempt to escape.

2. Advise him that he is under arrest for Assault and False Imprisonment (my local laws). Blast him with OC. If he attempts to escape, let him and call 911. If he attempts to persist request assistance from others present in making the arrest, request someone to call 911 (if others are present) and use other less than lethal means to halt his aggression. I would not introduce the threat of lethal force until I thought it was absolutely necessary. Age and infirmities could change things, but were stated to not be a part of the scenario.

A situation that illustrates the need to have additional self defense capabilities than a gun
 
#11 ·
Just shoot multiple times around the BG's feet and demoralize him by making him dance ! :rofl: :rolleyes:

Seriously don't consider the above, but that visual image flashed in my mind when I read the OP making me laugh out loud. That would be one shocked BG !!!

You have a very legitimate question and someone being trapped like that in a public restroom is realistic. This is one of those grey scenarios, best filled by your SA not letting you get trapped like that in the first place, and/or carry an alternate defensive weapon/HTH, or bluff your way out of the trap somehow.
 
#12 ·
Remember people, fists are deadly weapons too. Every human is natrually armed with deadly weapons. To many people have died via "unarmed" assailents useing just thier hands (unarmed). Just a certain blow to the head can kill, and blow making one uncouncious and the fall to the ground can kill, the results of a blow can make one disabled etc.etc.etc.. I'm not taking that chance.

I think this..."just becuase you have a hammer not every problem becomes a nail" saying has gone a little to far. Of course...but when it comes to a person really wanting to hurt (hurting can run the risk of bodily harm, immidiate death or a shorten life) you...that intent is a nail and I'm not useing a wrench.

I'm not a very big male 5'6 160lbs. I've been in this EXACT situation before at a bowling alley IN THE BATHROOM.... Getting hit by a bigger male gave me whiplash, and a cuncusion. Not letting that happen to me again OK? To me if all esle fails, (verble negotiation, attempting to leave)....this person has intent to inflict great bodily harm and willing to run the risk of possibly killing me or even resulting in injuries that could shorten my life span (ie: deadly force though delayed). I take that very seriously and will deploy my version of deadly force to stop the threat.

In a uncontrolled fight I AM NOT playing fair.....

I know my laws and my laws allow me to have this type of thought process.

Some jerk off wants to commit a crime of assault to feed whatever drives that intent....I will deploy the measure that will MOST EFFECTIVELY stop that intent....if it happens to takes a life to stop such intent so be...but I know I avoided the confrintation to begin.

I don't want to load out with knives, OC spray, and other manner of gear....I will load out with the most effective force equalizer that I'm able to use....a firearm fits that bill as most effective.
 
#14 ·
I can't shoot him. No disparity of force? Okay, then he's a little gimped up, too... I'd try to buy him off... with an offer of a pitcher of beer, maybe... or 10 bux... whatever... If that doesn't work... Well, the human forehead is an (almost perfect) arch, one of the strongest natural designs. I'm aiming for his face plate with mine.
 
#15 ·
This is one reason I have thought about leaving the tactical folder, flashlight and other crap at home and carrying a small pepper spray canister. I firmly believe that if you have a lethal force option, you should also have a non lethal force option.

I have seen people killed by recieving a head butt, and then hitting the ground. One was a college student. I was there before EMS. The kid may as well have been shot.

I am also under the opinion that physical altercation should be avoided at all costs. I don't care how good you think you are, things happen. I have 2 stab wounds and at least 6 scars on my face and arms from blades to prove it.

A much safer, and effective , not to mention liable expedient way is to use the pepper spray. It works. No fuss, no muss, just apply liberally to eyes and face. Call The police, and give your side first.
 
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#16 ·
I'll just speak from experience. Today's LEO has a lot more tools to use than we did years ago. Sometimes ya just gotta fight. I can't think of many places other than bars that you would get in an issue like that and in Fl, you ain't suppose to have a gun there. There was a lot of times I felt like unsnapping my gun and shooting the guy to get him off of me, but never got that far. Can't say that I won all the fights and a few got away and I was thankful of it at the time. I remember chasing a big dude late one night and finally finding him hiding under a bush. I pulled my service weapon, pointed it at him and told him to come out. He started screaming, Shoot me, Shoot me!!!! My first thought was to fire one off in the ground next to him but then what if he started screaming You Missed, You Missed, Try Again!!! So I just holstered my weapon, grabbed my Kel-light and waded in.
Oh yeah, as for Pepper Spray, I've used it and seen guys just blow it off like it was water. Also be prepared that you will get a good dose also. From what I hear, the new tazers work pretty good.
 
#18 ·
Glockman,

I hear you on the pepper spray... but jeez... I've offered to buy the jerk a pitcher, or a tenspot... I've done all I could to de-escalate... pepper spray might work, might not. For me not to be able to get away from him, means he's got me completely cornered. I can't shoot him, no disparity of force.. he's detaining me against my will, and he's determined to fight... If I can't get away... and he's that close (as to have me cornered)... The head butt might just have to do it, maybe a knee to the groin instead. But if he's so amped up to fight... and everything else being equal...
 
#19 ·
I think it muddies the waters when you mix the response of how a LEO should react vs. a civilian. I suspect that a civilian will have greater latitude in resorting to lethal force. Am I wrong?

I don't view myself as an expert on determining the differences. Anyone with better qualifications care to weigh in?
 
#20 ·
I think that a civilian "may" be given more latitude relative to the use of lethal force, but I would not rely too heavily on that depending on area of the contry among other things.

I see three potential solutions, although there may be more.
1. De-escalate
2. Escape
3. Overcome the aggression

OC may or may not be effective to varying degrees, somewhat depending on what you consider effective. I view it as a momentary distraction/discomfort rather than a fight stopper in itself. It provides a brief window for other measures, be they escape or other aggression stopping techniques. It is an enabler rather than a soution. I believe that it will be effective most of the time in that role.

Electrical stun devices may also be useful, if you favor that direction.

While virtually nothing is absolute, I believe that the company you keep and the locations you frequent will significantly influence the likelihood of encountering such situations.
 
#41 ·
While virtually nothing is absolute, I believe that the company you keep and the locations you frequent will significantly influence the likelihood of encountering such situations.
Yep...though most of my fights (even a knife fight) were in late teens......I've learned many things since and have been able to avoid problems well before they start. Practicing the lessons learned early on has kept me free of conflict for more the 15yrs.
 
#21 ·
Oakchas

There comes a time, when the talking is done. If there is no disparity of force issue, and someone has gotten that close to you, as to have you pinned, you missed the cut off point.

There are ways however, to circumvent this pickle. Sometimes it involves creating distance, by means of a strike, or other maneuver. However, you HAVE GOT TO BE COMMITTED TO YOUR ACTION! This is not the time to make a half hearted, weenie action. Strike first, strike decisively, strike last.

The only point I want to get across here, is an assault charge is a whole lot better than a manslaughter charge, in a worst case scenario. Everyone needs to think about this! There can be serious ramifications even if you are justified. By allowing yourself a less than lethal alternative, you can prevent yourself from being in a no win situation.

My advice to anyone, anywhere, is train in all manner of SD. The gun is NOT the only answer. Train until you bleed, until you like the taste of sweat and blood. Until when someone grabs you , or hits you, you can smile and say.....ahh...this is gonna be fun. I'm serious. You either are, or you ain't. Predator or prey.
 
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#23 ·
Sometime the fetal position works very well. Do you really want to be in a place that management will allow something like this to escalate? Its really bad for repeat business. Also what I haven't heard mentioned is alcohol. Usually alcohol plays heavy into these matters. If it wasn't for alcohol and wimmen, there would be peace in the world. If you have had any alcohol at all, don't dare touch that weapon.
Yes, comparing this to what a LEO would do is possibly incorrect. But we got the ramifications of using that weapon pounded in our head all the time and old habits never die. But remember, just because you shoot someone doesn't prevent them from whipping your butt. You may just make them madder. Bad guys just don't fall down when shot like in the movies. From what I have seen and been told by fellow officers, you will actually think you have missed when you shoot someone. It takes a while for it to sink in that they have been shot most of the time and if they are really agitated, they may not realize it at all.
 
#25 ·
I can probably add a couple things.

I speak from the other end of the stick, at 5'8", 160lbs soaking wet.

I had four people holding me (in uniform), one on each arm and one on each leg, with one punching me. It wasn't until I got my nose broke that I decided it ws time to go to guns. Fortunately, at that moment, a large dep with a nightstick in hand arrived to provide some assistance.

Most people do not fight well. Wanting to win more than the other guy makes a big difference. Simple techniques often work the best. A small window can provide large results.

Other tools can give one an advantage without escalating beyond reasonable. A small edge can make the difference. If I slap you with my "gloves" on, which I wear when we go out at night, you are going down.
 
#27 ·
Tis true. I have used both their appearance and use to bring immediate "calm" to a number of situations. People who experience them from the wrong end, quickly decide that it is not an experience that they wish to repeat.
 
#29 ·
Since I was one of the folks who said I would not opt for fisti-cuffs, I'll put another response in here.

First of all, avoidance in the best defense in such situations, and I guess sometimes, it can not be avoided due to poor planning, and a lack of situational awareness (a skill that I would argue is more important than h2h combat, and something that actually can be learned, and requires training for upkeep), or just crappy luck on a certain day. So, lets say through whatever reason, I find myself backed into a corner, with no viable means of escape except through physical violence. I have tried to de-escalate verbally, and that did not work. I have tried to peacefully leave, and that did not work.

My EDC gear consists of my carry gun, two spare mags, Spyderco Endura, cell phone, wallet, and keys. I don't really want to wear a Batman belt as a civilian. As an infantryman, I have pretty extensive training in my service's martial art, which is not taught at Mc-dojo's, and places an emphasis on real fighting. I have trained and practiced both non-lethal techniques, and lethal techniques (more training on this, obviously we can't kill our sparring partners).

My first choice at this point would actually be my cell phone, especially in a scenario such as AZ Infidel's where there is a barrier. Call 911, start explaining the situation, and let them record what is going on, and hopefully get some help on the way.

If the phone doesn't work, or someone puts their hands on me, I am going to respond in whatever way I feel necessary in order to defend myself, while using appropriate force according to the continuum of force. I have attempted to de-escalate and escape, and through no fault of my own, it did not work. There is a viable threat to my well being. What if the guy gets me in an arm-bar, that can certainly cause grievous bodily harm, or he kicks out my knee, handicapping me for life? Do I need to wait for him to do that before I can defend myself? Even if I go hands on with him, there is a chance that a jury will see me as using too much force if I dislocate a joint, or break a bone. Because I am a trained killer with combat experience, and will be for the rest of my days. So why did I need to go that far on a drunk who wouldn't let me leave?

Someone said taking a life is the most serious thing you can do, if you read my posts here, I have said that in other threads. I am very aware of how true that statement is. If for the rest of my days I don't shoot another human being, I will be happy. But I will not allow someone to cause me serious bodily harm or kill me if I can stop it from happening. Of course, there are a million variables to this, including each individual who carries and their training/skills/size/general health, and the BG's apperance/size/intent/words/posture (and the same if he has any friends). But that is my answer for me. Everyone else needs to come up with their own answer.

Of course, in every fist fight I have ever been in, there was always a point where I could of walked away from it, and for stupid or not so stupid reasons I didn't.
 
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