Do you have to fight?

Do you have to fight?

This is a discussion on Do you have to fight? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I would like to know if - do you have to fight? I understand that if there is a disparity of force you can use ...

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Thread: Do you have to fight?

  1. #1
    Member Array B94's Avatar
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    Do you have to fight?

    I would like to know if - do you have to fight?
    I understand that if there is a disparity of force you can use your gun to defend yourself. But what if there is no disparity of force, being that it appears to be an even match.

    My example is that a BG wants to fight you but you decline and try to leave. But the BG has you trapped with no escape. The BG has no weapons except fists. Can you draw and shoot if the BG won’t move out of your way so you can leave or do you have to fight?
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  2. #2
    Senior Member Array KoriBustard's Avatar
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    You seem to have a bunch of bad choices here. If you are armed and the BG insists on fighting, what happens if you end up going to the floor and he gets his hands on your weapon? You cannot let that happen under any circumstances so a physical fight is out of the question. So you should continue to try to calm him down, insist you don't want to fight and that you just wish leave. If it becomes clear that the BG is not going to let this happen and physical contact is imminent, you will have to draw your weapon as a legal elevation of force. But you cannot shoot unless the BG attempts to draw a weapon or (stupidly) attempts to attack you physically. Maybe others will have a different outlook...I'd be very interested to hear them.

  3. #3
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    Array RETSUPT99's Avatar
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    I'm an old fart...
    I don't really want to fight anyone...
    I'm not going to be held against my will...
    If you threaten to physically harm me...you've made a poor victim choice.

    If I've done nothing to instigate an incident...you have picked me out for some personal fun...you've made a big mistake.
    I will react quickly and violently, and I'll deal with the aftermath...you won't have to worry about what happens after the incident.
    garyacman likes this.
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  4. #4
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    No, you don't have to fight. If a physical fight starts, its a gun fight, because you brought a gun. I am 25, a combat veteran, and a AD Marine so I am in decent shape, but if I am a place I am carrying, I am not going to opt for some fisti-cuffs. If you have a reasonable fear that he is going to cause serious/mortal harm to you, you have the right to use appropriate force to defend yourself.

    Of course the key is avoiding such situations anyways. You can't shoot him just for not moving out of your way. But if he is presenting a viable possible lethal threat to you, you have the right to defend yourself
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by B94 View Post
    I would like to know if - do you have to fight?
    I understand that if there is a disparity of force you can use your gun to defend yourself. But what if there is no disparity of force, being that it appears to be an even match.

    My example is that a BG wants to fight you but you decline and try to leave. But the BG has you trapped with no escape. The BG has no weapons except fists. Can you draw and shoot if the BG won’t move out of your way so you can leave or do you have to fight?
    I think if you have to ask this question you need to review your state's laws on justification for the use of force, use of lethal force, display of a weapon, and so forth. The basic question is, no matter where you live, whether or not a reasonable person in that situation would be in fear for their life; often stated as does the opponent have the ability to hurt you very very badly if not kill you, are you actually in jeopardy of the opponent doing that, does he actually have the opportunity to act, and sometimes does he have the intent. You also need to know if your state law requires you to attempt to flee and if your state law prohibits you from using a "self defense" legal defense against a murder charge if you did anything whatsoever to precipitate the fight.

    My take is that if there is no obvious disparity of force as for example the one mentioned by Retsupt, older guy being attacked by young person, and there is no visible weapon, you probably can't use your gun. Again, it sometimes all depends on exactly what is going on, what has gone on immediately prior. But, in the end, simply put, a reasonable person must be in reasonable fear of imminent (immediate) great bodily harm or death.

  6. #6
    Member Array black knife's Avatar
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    A cop worries about this situation all the time. However a Cop can not just shoot an unarmed suspect because he is resisiting arrest or is trying to assault him. So what makes a person think that a civilian can do so.

    If you are threatened with someone who is just trying to fight you and you have the abilty to defend yourself I don't think you would be justified in shooting him. Being armed has a lot of responsibilties and it is a decision you choose to make. I don't think any LE agency or district attorney's office is going to except your excuse of shooting an unarmed subject because you did not want to defend yourself because you might get your gun taken away. That would be your decesion to carry a gun and this is one of the chances you take in doing so. I suggest you carry pepper spray or learn to defend yourself with your hands.
    "You fight the way you Train"

  7. #7
    Distinguished Member Array airslot's Avatar
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    To young to die
    To old to take an ass whoopin
    I'm going to shoot you
    PPKman and The Old Anglo like this.
    The situation will NEVER BE THE WAY YOU WANT, it WILL BE THE WAY IT IS. You must be FLEXIBLE ENOUGH TO ADAPT and just "DEAL WITH IT".

  8. #8
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    You understand that taking a human life is the most serious thing a person can do in this world, right?

    Do you really think society is going to just give people a pass every time a bully gets in their way and they just shoot them down?

    Let me know how that works out for ya.

    Should I Shoot Someone If They Are Unarmed?
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  9. #9
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    You didn't mention the type of location and if others are present.
    Know your local laws.
    Sometimes there are no easy answers.

    A couple examples:
    1. Blast him with OC and then attempt to escape.

    2. Advise him that he is under arrest for Assault and False Imprisonment (my local laws). Blast him with OC. If he attempts to escape, let him and call 911. If he attempts to persist request assistance from others present in making the arrest, request someone to call 911 (if others are present) and use other less than lethal means to halt his aggression. I would not introduce the threat of lethal force until I thought it was absolutely necessary. Age and infirmities could change things, but were stated to not be a part of the scenario.

    A situation that illustrates the need to have additional self defense capabilities than a gun
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  10. #10
    Member Array AZ Infidel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    You understand that taking a human life is the most serious thing a person can do in this world, right?

    Do you really think society is going to just give people a pass every time a bully gets in their way and they just shoot them down?

    Let me know how that works out for ya.

    Should I Shoot Someone If They Are Unarmed?
    Wise words indeed.

    It seems to me that far too many gun toters are looking at their CCW gun as the "hammer for all nails". Lemme drop a little knowledge on you....it isn't. A gun is a specific tool for a VERY specific job. YOUR responsibility in carrying that particular tool is a great and heavy burden. Period. YOU have the mantle of responsibility NOT to get into trick bags and fights. YOU have the responsibility to be the bigger man and even at the cost of your ego and fear that you might lose man card points...offer to leave or back down, or *GULP* admit that maybe just maye your mother is whatever expletive the big bad bully asserted she might be or that your wife/girlfriend/daughter is a good lay.

    As I have mentioned before, it is worth it to me to toss a d-bag ten bucks NOT TO HAVE TO KILL HIM...and that in in the case of an attempted robbery. In a silly ******* contest or a bully running his mouth...let him have his verbal victory. Say things like "Look...I don't want trouble. I really don't." If he lays hands on you, you have the right to defend yourself, but only to the degree that one would reasonably and neccessarily HAVE TO USE to stop the threat. Even a good old fashioned fist fight where you get a fat lip, black eye, maybe even some cracked ribs is NOT immediate danger of death or grave bodily harm. The truth is....the VAST majority of bullies and billy badasses I have ever run across really can't fight anyway. Bigger doesn't always mean badder, and bicesp don't mean they know how to use their ape arms. I know older men in their late sixties who can turn a big strapping thuggos into crying little diaper dumpers.

    Yes...there IS a disparity of force which would allow one to employ deadly force againt a clearly superior attacker or group of attackers...age, infirmity, handicap, heart condition...all of those...but two reasonably equally matched guys...no PD or DA or jury is going to buy it. I hate to be the burster of bubbles...but there you have it.

    YOU have the responsibility to learn other less-lethal methods of self defense. Pepper spray. Taser. Expandable baton. Leather SAP (where legal). Kubotan. REAL martial arts, not the MMA or "kung-fu-fashionable-crap-of-the-day-at-the-local-krav-maga-chop-sockey-variety" but a REAL fighting skill taught by a real hand to hand defensive tactics instructor. I can tell you from real world experience that the MMA style is awesome for the octagon, but it centers too much on "going to the ground" which is the LAST place you want to be. You need a down and dirty, end the fight NOW style as taught by guys like Michael Janich. Learn it. It also has the advantage of being great excercise.

    Remember...your gun can't be the ONLY tool you carry for self defense, because not every situation in which you may find yourself will be a bullet shaped nail. Even if you learn only one or two nasty fast holds, or techniques, and I mean LEARN them, know them and practice them...you will be better off than the vast majority of so-called self-styled tough guys out there.

  11. #11
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    Just shoot multiple times around the BG's feet and demoralize him by making him dance !

    Seriously don't consider the above, but that visual image flashed in my mind when I read the OP making me laugh out loud. That would be one shocked BG !!!

    You have a very legitimate question and someone being trapped like that in a public restroom is realistic. This is one of those grey scenarios, best filled by your SA not letting you get trapped like that in the first place, and/or carry an alternate defensive weapon/HTH, or bluff your way out of the trap somehow.
    Turn the election's in 2014 to a "2A Revolution". It will serve as a 1994 refresher not to "infringe" on our Second Amendment. We know who they are now.........SEND 'EM HOME. Our success in this will be proportional to how hard we work to make it happen.

  12. #12
    Senior Member Array Frogbones's Avatar
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    Remember people, fists are deadly weapons too. Every human is natrually armed with deadly weapons. To many people have died via "unarmed" assailents useing just thier hands (unarmed). Just a certain blow to the head can kill, and blow making one uncouncious and the fall to the ground can kill, the results of a blow can make one disabled etc.etc.etc.. I'm not taking that chance.

    I think this..."just becuase you have a hammer not every problem becomes a nail" saying has gone a little to far. Of course...but when it comes to a person really wanting to hurt (hurting can run the risk of bodily harm, immidiate death or a shorten life) you...that intent is a nail and I'm not useing a wrench.

    I'm not a very big male 5'6 160lbs. I've been in this EXACT situation before at a bowling alley IN THE BATHROOM.... Getting hit by a bigger male gave me whiplash, and a cuncusion. Not letting that happen to me again OK? To me if all esle fails, (verble negotiation, attempting to leave)....this person has intent to inflict great bodily harm and willing to run the risk of possibly killing me or even resulting in injuries that could shorten my life span (ie: deadly force though delayed). I take that very seriously and will deploy my version of deadly force to stop the threat.

    In a uncontrolled fight I AM NOT playing fair.....

    I know my laws and my laws allow me to have this type of thought process.

    Some jerk off wants to commit a crime of assault to feed whatever drives that intent....I will deploy the measure that will MOST EFFECTIVELY stop that intent....if it happens to takes a life to stop such intent so be...but I know I avoided the confrintation to begin.

    I don't want to load out with knives, OC spray, and other manner of gear....I will load out with the most effective force equalizer that I'm able to use....a firearm fits that bill as most effective.

  13. #13
    Ex Member Array MadMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ Infidel View Post
    YOU have the responsibility to learn other less-lethal methods of self defense. Pepper spray. Taser. Expandable baton. Leather SAP (where legal). Kubotan. REAL martial arts, not the MMA or "kung-fu-fashionable-crap-of-the-day-at-the-local-krav-maga-chop-sockey-variety" but a REAL fighting skill taught by a real hand to hand defensive tactics instructor. I can tell you from real world experience that the MMA style is awesome for the octagon, but it centers too much on "going to the ground" which is the LAST place you want to be. You need a down and dirty, end the fight NOW style as taught by guys like Michael Janich. Learn it. It also has the advantage of being great excercise.
    I get my exercise at the gym. I do not feel under any obligation to learn how to kick someone's arse, or to tote along three or four "tools" for various types of self-defense.

    A gun is a tool of absolute last resort. Period.

  14. #14
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    I can't shoot him. No disparity of force? Okay, then he's a little gimped up, too... I'd try to buy him off... with an offer of a pitcher of beer, maybe... or 10 bux... whatever... If that doesn't work... Well, the human forehead is an (almost perfect) arch, one of the strongest natural designs. I'm aiming for his face plate with mine.
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  15. #15
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    This is one reason I have thought about leaving the tactical folder, flashlight and other crap at home and carrying a small pepper spray canister. I firmly believe that if you have a lethal force option, you should also have a non lethal force option.

    I have seen people killed by recieving a head butt, and then hitting the ground. One was a college student. I was there before EMS. The kid may as well have been shot.

    I am also under the opinion that physical altercation should be avoided at all costs. I don't care how good you think you are, things happen. I have 2 stab wounds and at least 6 scars on my face and arms from blades to prove it.

    A much safer, and effective , not to mention liable expedient way is to use the pepper spray. It works. No fuss, no muss, just apply liberally to eyes and face. Call The police, and give your side first.
    Naufragia likes this.

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