Why carry at home?
This is a discussion on Why carry at home? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I (shutterbug) am a photographer who covers 165 college sporting events a year. Many times I finish up a basketball game and drive straight home. ...
February 22nd, 2011 09:42 PM
I (shutterbug) am a photographer who covers 165 college sporting events a year. Many times I finish up a basketball game and drive straight home. I have about $35k of gear with me, and have been using it in front of thousands of people. One of them could decide to follow me home and look for an easy opportunity. So while my neighborhood is really quite nice, I can see the realm of possibility that I could be a magnet for being assaulted in the driveway, or having someone break in while we are awake or asleep to steal my gear.
After warily bringing my gear to the well-lit house door, my PPK w/laser in a Yaqui paddle holster, I go inside and remove my gun, ALWAYS putting it in the same place in my bedroom. When back in the family room, to watch TV, or whatever, my defense is a Keltec P11 concealed 3 ft from the hinge side of the front door, accessible with my right hand. That gun's only reason for existence is to be right there. I will never have to hunt for it, or load it; I can never forget to put it there after taking it somewhere else. It goes to the range occasionally, but never gets carried. Wife knows it's there and can shoot it. Daughter and her husband live 200 yds away and they know it's there.
Before Christmas when I was shopping around for a .38 snub for my wife the gun shop owner suggested the "stash" gun concept, and I thought it made sense. I was about to sell the Keltec, but decided to keep it and use as described.
February 23rd, 2011 08:21 AM
I personally feel this indistinct threat is way overblown. I don't have facts to prove that assumption, but I do know this: Police and the FBI do not keep specific statistics for "home invasions". Sometimes a home invasion is filed under armed robbery, sometimes burglary, murder, rape, or some other crime. So even the statistics that are out there are derivative calculations of assumptions. As statisticians like to say, the precise calculation of a wild-ass guess is still just a wild-ass guess.
Originally Posted by Sporty79
Every website I've looked at on the subject is trying to sell you something using their "statistics" as a fear mongering device to get you to pay for products or services. Plus, there is no demographic breakdown. In other words, do home invasions occur randomly, or are there demographic factors such as location, occupation of the victim(s), and previous criminal activity that influence the likelihood of this rare event?
No doubt there is anecdotal evidence that this can occur to seemingly random people, but with crime statistics declining nationwide, I am not sure it's the one big thing you should spend your time worrying about.
February 23rd, 2011 10:21 AM
No doubt there is anecdotal evidence that this can occur to seemingly random people, but with crime statistics declining nationwide, I am not sure it's the one big thing you should spend your time worrying about.[/QUOTE]
Why shouldn't it be? That is where I work most of the time. So I spend an extra 60hrs a week at home compared to many. That certainly raise my odds of being there if something happens. Also, from the anecdotal evidence I see (news reports) most burglaries of homes happen during the day when the BG's believe nobody is home. But I am, so I should NOT be prepared?
From the approach you gave above I bet you don't even carry anymore right? I mean "with crime statistics declining nationwide" you should just leave your weapons at home in the safe.
The absolute #1 reason I have a weapon AT ALL is to protect my home. Period. The rest of the time I carry is just gravy.
What are you protecting if you are not protecting your home? MY wife lives there, my kids live there, I live there....
So I live in a safe area, I commute (when I ever do) through safe areas, and my office is in a safe part of town. I don't care if my Van/Car is stolen and I am never carrying too much cash... When should I carry?
February 23rd, 2011 10:23 AM
February 23rd, 2011 10:51 AM
According to the FBI crime statistics, most daytime burglars are also unarmed and not looking for a confrontation. If they slide open a door or window and hear you in the house, the great majority will quickly run off. Most burglars are aware that the law makes a huge distinction between B&E and an armed robbery. Again, I'm not saying anyone's assumptions are wrong, just pointing out facts.
Why is it that some people simply cannot discuss this topic without resorting to statements like this:
"From the approach you gave above I bet you don't even carry anymore right? I mean "with crime statistics declining nationwide" you should just leave your weapons at home in the safe."
Notice I claimed nothing of the sort, nor did I suggest or imply people should not be armed if they so choose. I am simply pointing out what I think are skewed ideas about the likelihood of certain events - especially those that call for an ultimate solution. Namely, a firearm. And yes, crime statistics are declining, in spite of fear mongering and "what if" analyses. Does that mean no one should carry? That's a ludicrous leap of logic to make, which I believe was your intent.
Unlike, you, I don't carry to protect my home. I make a finer distinction. I carry to protect me, and those under my care. Period. My car, my home, and my possessions are all fully insured. I keep my bedroom door locked at night. If someone enters my house, I'll arm myself and call 911 if I have time. I am not going down to confront a thief to protect my TV or guitars. If an univited "guest" atttempts to come through the bedroom door, I will take appropriate actions. I simply won't risk walking out into the night to investigate door bell ringers or "bumps in the night". I have nothing to prove. I am simply making a decision about me and my family's safety.
Also, I prefer not to think of the gun as the solution to nearly all the situations I will encounter over my lifetime. I happily admit I do not carry as much as when I first began this journey. I still do when I so choose, but much of my life is lived out among people and places where I cannot carry. I wish more people availed themselves of the option to carry, and I respect others' personal risk management decisions.
However, I find in your sarcastic tone that you do not respect my personal decisions. That's fine with me. However, I think you miss the point of a "discussion board". I am sorry I do not share your opinons, but that's life.
February 23rd, 2011 12:46 PM
In my world, risk has 2 primary components - frequency and severity. One must evaluate the frequency and severity of an event and decide on how to proceed. For instance, if someone were to steal $1 every hour from you, this would be a high frequency and low-medium severity depending on your budget. This would amount to $8,760 per year and would properly be dealt with by locking up your money. If they were stealing $1,000 per hour, you would have a high frequency and high severity risk - $8.7million per year - but could still mitigate the risk relatively easily.
Originally Posted by MadMac
Now, home invasion is a low risk, high severity (potential death) event. Do all home invasions that occur with people home result in death - no, but it is a distinct possibility. While your response to this may vary, mine is to be armed to have the best chance at mitigating, hopefully without any loss of life, the risk that I or my family will be killed or severly harmed. Your risk profile may be different.
I work at home and as a previous poster noted, mid-day crimes are not as uncommon. I may not have the time or ability to tell if a mid-day invader is armed, but if he breaks into my house, my presumption is that he means me ill. If he bolts when he hears me - great, that makes my day. If not circumstances will dictate the response.
You lock your bedroom door at night. This is a great idea, but I have kids still at home and need to be able to protect them and not just hunker down in the master bedroom and call the cops. In a couple of years, this will be my response, but until the kids fly the coop, I have to be more proactive. I will not protect stuff and I won't go downstairs to sort out a break in, but If a perp is trying to navigate the stairs at night, my default position is that he means me or mine harm. Circumstances will dictate the response, but at a minimum he will get lit up with a bright flashlight. If he flees, I am all for that. I certainly will not be chasing him down the stairs and out the door, but will call 911 to report.
"I've noticed that everyone that is pro-abortion has already been born." - Ronald Reagan
"When governments fear the people there is liberty. When the people fear the government there is tyranny." Thomas Jefferson
You are only paranoid until you are right - then you are a visionary.
February 23rd, 2011 08:57 PM
I always carry - except at work on campus - that includes at home. it is not inconvenient and my wife and I live alone with no children. SO I see not reason to not carry. It does not mean I do not relax.
"To predict the behavior of ordinary people in advance, you only have to assume that they will always try to escape a disagreeable situation with the smallest possible expenditure of intelligence." Friedrich Nietzsche
February 24th, 2011 02:57 AM
Originally Posted by MadMac
My conjecture was "If all things were tracked in statistics ..." that I'm betting it would likely surprise lots of people as to frequency. Nothing more. That was my only reference to statistics. Of course, everything isn't tracked, nor can it be. An unknown number of incidents is never reported. Statistics on everything doesn't exist, written down. They can't exactly be shown. And we all have similar access to the publicly-available area crime stats that towns and cities publish, though as most of us know it's spotty given the cost of maintaining such systems. Obviously, though, the total incidence of such threats around the home exceeds what is reported in the sources we all have.
My conjecture was limited to my belief as to the likely surprise the average person might have if the incidence of all such criminal threats around the home were known. That wasn't to suggest the likelihood anyone might experience such a thing; it merely suggested a guess that people would be surprised by how much does occur. Nobody here is naive enough to think that the only such crimes that occur are the ones that appear in the morning newspaper. Yet many "average" people are (so naive, that is).
Your laundry list of what "could" happen is simple conjecture.
Here's my version for you: Anything "can" happen. Anything. To anyone. At any time. So let's see about using a discussion point a little less vague, shall we?
The original poster pointed out an acquaintance whose eyes got big as saucers when understanding he carried his own defensive firearm on him at home. I was simply suggesting that if the average person knew just how often such incidents occurred in and around the home, they'd likely be a bit more wary than being as dismissive and care-free as so many seem to be, surprised as heck to learn that someone they know actually dares to believe it's worthwhile to be capable of defending oneself at home. Nothing more, in spite of the use of the word "statistics" and suggesting a couple examples I had seen posted here. Certainly nothing worth getting in a twist about.
Same here. I carry to protect me and mine, not things insured (the replacement cost of which I'm prepared to stomach as part of the cost of relying on 'insurance' to deal with them).
Unlike, you, I don't carry to protect my home. I make a finer distinction. I carry to protect me, and those under my care. Period. My car, my home, and my possessions are all fully insured.
Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
self defense (A.O.J.).
How does disarming
the number of victims?
Reason over Force: Why the Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos)
NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.
February 24th, 2011 01:59 PM
I understand exactly the point of a discussion board. This is it.
Originally Posted by MadMac
Do you understand that carrying a weapon is so easy and comfortable for me that no matter what the actual odds may be, my family is worth carrying that weapon and shouldering the burden that comes with it?
It does not seem that you do. It seems to me that you carry or agree with others carrying when statistically viable according to some levels of risk that you adhere to.
OH, Wait. That is exactly what I am doing, but my families protection from any percentage of risk is worth this. Isn't yours? IF the near impossible (in your eyes) happens and your family is attacked and harmed afterwards will you wish you were armed? or just stand there thinking WOW that was nearly statistically impossible!
Do you EVER carry a second weapon? I never do, that "burden" is too much for the risks I face.
Do you pay to have your home monitored by an alarm company? I do not/will not, that "burden" is too much for the risks I face.
Do you stay holed up in your room when you hear a bump at night? I do not as others have said I have children and a complicated home to defend them in. No I will not go out...
The absolute solution?? I know this, I will act when I see that my family is in danger that could possibly be severe at all. I will not hesitate to determine whether or not this BG means us harm or will just run off after a few minutes if I only use a spray, or a bright light, or alert them that the police are on the way.
And I agree I cant stand when people ask sarcastic questions. ME. But I really cant stand people who talk about statistics (YOU) and then they tell others that they are believing the wrong stats because the ones that (YOU) believe are the correct and or important ones to care about.
I am not sure how you come to the conclusion that others have come to the wrong conclusion (carry at home) using their own variables and risk assessments, yet they should believe that you, using your own variables and risk assessments have come to the correct conclusion.
So no sarcasm here. With all the crime stats knowledge you have accrued, how have your habits changed in reaction to the lower risks?
February 24th, 2011 03:15 PM
Dear Mr/Ms Sled,
Originally Posted by Sledzep01
Please cite where I claimed someone else's actions were "wrong" or they were wrong in believing incorrect data. Hint: don't bother looking. I never did.
Please cite where I told anyone else they were wrong for carrying at home. Hint: same as hint above.
As I have have stated repeatedly in my posts, this is a PERSONAL risk assessment and is unique to each individual. I am citing MY personal risk assessment for not carrying in my home. Not yours. My risk assessment is likely very different from yours.
I DID say that I believed the home invasion statistics I have seen are likely inaccurate and I stated my reasons for that belief. I don't feel like re-posting or re-typing everything I stated. You can review it yourself if you'd like.
Please allow me to clarify something, my angry friend. Personal risk management is not about binary concepts of right and wrong or good and bad. It about likelihood of outcomes and consequences.
I stay "holed" up in my room simply because I have the luxury to do so. I normally have no children or guests under my protection in my home; just me and the wife. If protecting the safety of your family requires you to exit your home and do a security sweep, that's your call, and I have no right to tell you it's wrong. For me, I find it a foolish risk. If I confront a miscreant who tries to assault me in my yard, I will have much more explaining to do should I shoot them than if I simply wait for a criminal to actually try to breach my home's defensive perimeter. Statistically, the odds work in my favor as well. I have one likelihood they will only visit my yard (perhaps to steal lawn furniture) and a much smaller likelihood they will endeavor to breach a door or window. That's how my family has been trained to handle this eventuality. You may feel differently. That's perfectly fine.
I have never claimed to be the arbiter of what's right or wrong. Where it's my opinion, I've qualified it as such. I do know that according to the FBI crime statistics, crime has been decreasing. If you find that fact disquieting (or even insulting to your intelligence), I would simple ask you to click over to this site:
FBI — Crime Statistics
Please click on the link titled: Crime Stats 2010
Our preliminary report shows crime rates fell across the board during the first six months of 2010.
It's simply a fact.
Notice I am not trying to tell you or anyone else what to do in response to that fact. I am simply pointing out a fact backed up by government research.
I also try to debunk some of the silly myths that seem to pop up repeatedly around here. My favorite is: criminals are attracted to the wealthier neighborhoods, because that's where all the "goodies" are. Although it sounds plausible, it's simply not true. The "good" part of town is the "good" part of town for a reason, and it's not because that where most of the crime takes place. Most folks will look at that and nod in agreement without ever actually trying to verify if that hypothesis is accurate.
Please relax. This is a discussion board, and I am simpy posting opinions, and where stated, facts. It's all part of the give-and-take of discussion. It's not meant inflame your "rooster mode".
Last edited by MadMac; February 24th, 2011 at 05:29 PM.
February 24th, 2011 03:38 PM
FWIW I found the following helpful when thinking about carry-at-home as "preparation" :
"The amount of preparation for a given outcome is determined by evaluating the importance of avoiding or exploiting it [that outcome] ; and the cost and effectiveness of the strategies you'll use."
____from: "The Gift Of Fear" by Gavin De Becker
"It is easier to resist at the beginning than at the end"____Leonardo da Vinci 1452-1519
February 24th, 2011 06:30 PM
I am sorry that you take honest questions of your posts as anger. After reading through your posts again I agree with you. You should not carry at home.
Originally Posted by MadMac
February 24th, 2011 06:40 PM
You are still missing the point. Whether I carry at home are not a decision you can agree with or not. It's personal risk management.
Originally Posted by Sledzep01
February 24th, 2011 06:59 PM
Discomfort? I've fallen asleep with my Five-seveN in my SERPA holster on my side.
Originally Posted by MadMac
Edit: I should add that the Five-seveN is NOT a small gun.
Move. Shoot. Survive.
― The "Unofficial" Suarez International Doctrine
“The real man smiles in trouble, gathers strength from distress and grows brave by reflection.”
― Thomas Paine
February 24th, 2011 08:00 PM
It's a damn fine firearm. I've had the privilege of shooting one. I agree- small it's not.
Originally Posted by AZ Hawk
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