Looking for Trouble? - Page 2

Looking for Trouble?

This is a discussion on Looking for Trouble? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I don't go outside every time the dogs bark, I just used that as one of the reason's I might do a little extra investigating. ...

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  1. #16
    Member Array thinktwice's Avatar
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    I don't go outside every time the dogs bark, I just used that as one of the reason's I might do a little extra investigating. I know that the self defense law in N.C. would be no different weather I was in my yard or in the parking lot of Wal-Mart if I were in grave danger with no other options. It's the options I am talking about. At home I would have had the option to stay in the home, and wait for the police. Believe me I know that would be hard to do, and I am not sure I could do that. However if someone is on my property, and I see them stealing the wheels off my car or any of my property, by law I can't shoot them nor would I want to take a life even if some dirt bag was stealing. I think even if they pulled a weapon, and I shot them, and it would be a clean shoot, I still think the question would be ask in court, "why didn't you wait on police"? Don't get me wrong I am with you guys, and would probably just take my chances in court. I am not saying I would necessarily be convicted, but with the legal system there's always that chance.
    Guns Have Only Two Enemies: Rust and Politicians.


  2. #17
    VIP Member Array chiefjason's Avatar
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    Personally, I live pretty close to the local PD. Great response times when I have needed them. I would call 911 if I knew someone was outside messing around. But I would likely not call them to come check my property for me.

    Oldvet, honestly there have been some sketchy situations that the Char/Meck has let slide recently. There was an older guy who's home got invaded and IIRC they assaulted his wife. He gave chase to try and give the PD a location. One of the kids pulled a gun and pointed it at him. The guy shot and killed the BG. No charges. It took a couple weeks for the dust to clear. But the DA did not pursue it because he feared for his life. I'm not recommending chasing someone down. But Char/Meck does not even punish criminals anymore.
    I prefer to live dangerously free than safely caged!

    "Our houses are protected by the good Lord and a gun. And you might meet 'em both if you show up here not welcome son." Josh Thompson "Way Out Here"

  3. #18
    Senior Member Array GlockJS's Avatar
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    I'm guilty of going out and checking on what went bump in the night. But I live in FL and my yard is still my castle so I'm good on that stand point.
    Glock 26 9mm, Ruger LCR .357mag

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  4. #19
    Distinguished Member Array Knightrider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcox4freedom View Post
    When you live in the country, you can't go calling 911 everytime you hear a "bump" in the night.
    lol..... people around here call 911 every time their snot nose little brat doesn't want to go to school in the morning.
    Glock: G22 .40 S&W and G23 .40 S&W Sig Sauer: P938 9mm Smith and Wesson: Model 437 .38 Spl, Model 65 357 Mag, and Sigma SW9VE 9mm

  5. #20
    VIP Member Array Sticks's Avatar
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    Know your laws, both state and local.

    Defense of property does not mean with deadly force.

    That I am aware of, there is no city or state law that reads ~ you have to allow the thieves take what they want while you wait for the police to arrive.

    If you confront someone stealing your property, as long as your weapon is not in your hand, you are not introducing the firearm into the confrontation.

    IMO, if you are suspicious of something amiss (either city or rural) on your property, I see no harm in investigating. I believe it would be prudent to verify before calling 911. You know your property, you know how to get to a point on your property to verify without being detected.
    Sticks

    Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
    A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
    See also Sheep

  6. #21
    Distinguished Member Array kelcarry's Avatar
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    SC Code of Laws Title 17 Chapter 13-Arrest, Process, Searches and Seizures: "A citizen may arrest a person (citizen's arrest) in the nightime by efficient means as the darkness and the probability of escape render necessary, EVEN IF THE LIFE OF THE PERSON SHOULD BE TAKEN, when the person----being under circumstances which raise just suspicion of his design to steal or to commit some felony, flees when he is hailed".
    IMO--clear as day (pardon the pun). Bump in the night and you perform citizen's arrest and he tries to run (obviously with his back to you) he has a very very big problem. Gotta luv South Carolina

  7. #22
    Member Array 1911srule's Avatar
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    Consider this when going outside to investigate noise. You find two or more BG's attempting to break into car, garage, outbuilding or whatever. You prone 'em out ok fine. They are gonna tell the police some bs , IE; "we were just crossing the property when this crazy SOB came out pointing a gun at us." Multiple statements against yours. Now you face possible charges, legal expenses. I say hold tight, protect your family is highest priority, not loss of property outside the home. A tough one on your pride, but wiser imho.If you go outside the home you leave the rest of your family vulnerable. Call the police in this instance, most of the time they won't catch them true. I know this from experience. We have two legged coyotes here always looking for gas, or scrap metal, ect. I've been ripped off for car parts, gas, tools over last few yrs. My garage was main target, they never got in because we kept it secure. But several attempts. My barn was theres, couldnt prevent entry so we kept nothing in it after they scored tools one night. If you can't secure it, it won't be yours for long. In the middle of the woods, all they do is lay down and wait for cops to leave. It sucks. We don't even call the police anymore, more trouble than not. Been trying to move now for awhile...

  8. #23
    Member Array n3ss's Avatar
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    In my neighborhood, with houses being so close together, if I hear something outside and I know it's not weather related, I generally peak out the windows and doors. My neighbors are old and the 'hood is generally quiet. If i were to see someone outside id likely call the cops first. Only confront/engage if something serious is up or if they attack me.

  9. #24
    VIP Member Array TedBeau's Avatar
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    Michigan is a stand your ground state. I can carry anywhere I can legally be (except the gun free zones). If I am on my own property I can defend my life, but I cannot defend my property. That being said, if I want to walk around my property at 2 am I can. If someone threatens or attacks me while I am on my own property and I am in fear for my life I can defend myself. It doesn't matter why I am there, as long as I can legally be there.

    Your state laws may vary. Know your laws.

  10. #25
    VIP Member Array TedBeau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelcarry View Post
    SC Code of Laws Title 17 Chapter 13-Arrest, Process, Searches and Seizures: "A citizen may arrest a person (citizen's arrest) in the nightime by efficient means as the darkness and the probability of escape render necessary, EVEN IF THE LIFE OF THE PERSON SHOULD BE TAKEN, when the person----being under circumstances which raise just suspicion of his design to steal or to commit some felony, flees when he is hailed". IMO--clear as day (pardon the pun). Bump in the night and you perform citizen's arrest and he tries to run (obviously with his back to you) he has a very very big problem. Gotta luv South Carolina
    I think you have to "hail" him though. The TV line "Stop or I'll shoot!"

  11. #26
    TVJ
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    Tactically, I rather stay inside and gather family to safe room, wife call 911, get more awake and orient to potentially deadly threat from deep sleep. Lots of advantages - cover, concealment, and time.

    I live in a suburban city with close neighbors/fences versus in the country. To me, the country is a different animal with a more self-reliant and aggressive set of protocols.

    Here is TX law. I include the section on defense of third person property since it exists, but I mind my own house and business exclusively.

    http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.u...E/htm/PE.9.htm

    SUBCHAPTER D. PROTECTION OF PROPERTY

    Sec. 9.41. PROTECTION OF ONE'S OWN PROPERTY. (a) A person in lawful possession of land or tangible, movable property is justified in using force against another when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to prevent or terminate the other's trespass on the land or unlawful interference with the property.
    (b) A person unlawfully dispossessed of land or tangible, movable property by another is justified in using force against the other when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to reenter the land or recover the property if the actor uses the force immediately or in fresh pursuit after the dispossession and:
    (1) the actor reasonably believes the other had no claim of right when he dispossessed the actor; or
    (2) the other accomplished the dispossession by using force, threat, or fraud against the actor.

    Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, Sec. 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974. Amended by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, Sec. 1.01, eff. Sept. 1, 1994.


    Sec. 9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property:
    (1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.41; and
    (2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:
    (A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime;
    or

    (B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property; and
    (3) he reasonably believes that:
    (A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or
    (B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.


    Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, Sec. 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974. Amended by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, Sec. 1.01, eff. Sept. 1, 1994.


    Sec. 9.43. PROTECTION OF THIRD PERSON'S PROPERTY. A person is justified in using force or deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property of a third person if, under the circumstances as he reasonably believes them to be, the actor would be justified under Section 9.41 or 9.42 in using force or deadly force to protect his own land or property and:
    (1) the actor reasonably believes the unlawful interference constitutes attempted or consummated theft of or criminal mischief to the tangible, movable property; or
    (2) the actor reasonably believes that:
    (A) the third person has requested his protection of the land or property;
    (B) he has a legal duty to protect the third person's land or property; or
    (C) the third person whose land or property he uses force or deadly force to protect is the actor's spouse, parent, or child, resides with the actor, or is under the actor's care.

    Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, Sec. 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974. Amended by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, Sec. 1.01, eff. Sept. 1, 1994.

    What is criminal mischief?

    Texas Penal Code - Section 28.03. Criminal Mischief

    Legal Research Home > Texas Laws > Penal Code > Texas Penal Code - Section 28.03. Criminal Mischief
    28.03. CRIMINAL MISCHIEF. (a) A person commits an offense if, without the effective consent of the owner: (1) he intentionally or knowingly damages or destroys the tangible property of the owner; (2) he intentionally or knowingly tampers with the tangible property of the owner and causes pecuniary loss or substantial inconvenience to the owner or a third person; or (3) he intentionally or knowingly makes markings, including inscriptions, slogans, drawings, or paintings, on the tangible property of the owner.
    The United States Constitution 1791. All Rights Reserved.

    "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it."
    - Frederic Bastiat

  12. #27
    VIP Member Array NC Bullseye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thinktwice View Post
    I don't go outside every time the dogs bark, I just used that as one of the reason's I might do a little extra investigating. I know that the self defense law in N.C. would be no different weather I was in my yard or in the parking lot of Wal-Mart if I were in grave danger with no other options. It's the options I am talking about. At home I would have had the option to stay in the home, and wait for the police. Believe me I know that would be hard to do, and I am not sure I could do that. However if someone is on my property, and I see them stealing the wheels off my car or any of my property, by law I can't shoot them nor would I want to take a life even if some dirt bag was stealing. I think even if they pulled a weapon, and I shot them, and it would be a clean shoot, I still think the question would be ask in court, "why didn't you wait on police"? Don't get me wrong I am with you guys, and would probably just take my chances in court. I am not saying I would necessarily be convicted, but with the legal system there's always that chance.

    Well there are some major difference between being on your premise vs out and about when it comes to trespassers. That was the point I was trying to make.

    In NC you can use ANY force necessary up to but not including deadly force to make them leave. By going out you are using the lowest form of force "presence" to make them leave. You have the right to "stand your ground" in NC when you are at home or in your place of business. You have no duty to retreat.

    This is an excerpt from the instructors manual titled "North Carolina Justice Academy Laws Governing Concealed Carry and the Use of Deadly Force" for the NC CHP course.

    "Force is allowed against a trespasser, but not deadly force. Old
    court cases establish a sequence for using force to eject
    trespassers. First, words must be used; second, if words do not
    work, then gentle hands may be laid on the trespasser; if gentle
    hands do not work, the owner may use whatever force is
    necessary to remove the trespasser but may not use force likely
    to kill or cause great bodily harm.
    The prohibition against deadly force to remove a trespasser
    does not apply to a trespasser who is imminently threatening
    the owner with death or great bodily harm. In that event, the
    premises owner may use the same force the law approves for
    defense of life, with the exception that the duty to retreat does
    not apply to a person on his or her own premises, or on
    business premises, or at home."


    Now if you have someone on your property and you confront them to demand they leave you are not an instigator, you are in the process of attempting to remove a trespasser. You can use non lethal force such as strong hands or OC spray to convince them to leave. If they refuse to leave you can meet their force with like force. If they escalate to deadly force then you have the right to meet that with deadly force.

    No where is it required that you confront them though. If you choose to stay inside and wait till the law arrives that would most likely be the best choice but as to being an instigator, not an issue.

  13. #28
    Member Array thinktwice's Avatar
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    NC Bullseye Yes I have taken the North Carolina CHP class, and this was covered, and most of you here that have replied are pretty much correct. I posted this thread just to get you guys/gals opinion's and what you would do. I know I can legally defend myself or any other person if facing grave bodily harm. I guess it all boils down to a judgment call. To me the self defense laws still have too many "gray areas" By the way thanks for the offer.
    Guns Have Only Two Enemies: Rust and Politicians.

  14. #29
    Member Array msb45's Avatar
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    Why carry at home? If you had a legally carried gun and investigated something it can't be portrayed as you went to get you gun and went out to use it. Sounds like a good reason to me.

  15. #30
    VIP Member Array miklcolt45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post
    Airport designation-Charlotte
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliott

    The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.
    Albert Einstein

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