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CTRT...

This is a discussion on CTRT... within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I think the active shooter scenario should be included in a more comprehensive overall "Emergency Response Team" training. The church I go to has many ...

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  1. #16
    VIP Member Array TedBeau's Avatar
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    I think the active shooter scenario should be included in a more comprehensive overall "Emergency Response Team" training. The church I go to has many elderly people that have known and probably unknown health problems. Is your team skilled in CPR? Are they trained to deal with fall injuries? Is there a AED (Automatic Electronic Defiberlator) on site and do you know how to use it? Do you have a tornado or sever thunder storm emergency plan?


  2. #17
    Member Array JPCleary's Avatar
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    I agree with what most have said so far regarding the research of legal implications...

    Beyond that, the tactical and logistical considerations necessary when one goes from just having the responsibility of defending oneself and their family, to being responsible for defending the entire congregation are enormous.

    If you imagine the scenario of multiple assailants attacking a congregation Columbine style, and what it would take to mount a coordinated counter attack, you would need the skills of a highly trained SWAT team...and I would be very surprised if your group of CWP's had that particular skill set.

    And not only would the individual skill sets be necessary, but the team skill set as well. This would require much time and training...scenario based training in the church.

    Also your role goes from that of defensive to offensive. Me as a CWP in this kind of situation will be attempting to break contact and flee while protecting my family. Should I be faced with an immediate threat as I break contact, I would be equipped to deal with that threat...but my immediate concern is to evacuate my family.

    As a church "Tactical Response Team" your mission would be movement to contact to engage the threat...that really changes things.

    Of course, maybe I'm just misunderstanding your intentions...
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  3. #18
    Member Array Hkchris's Avatar
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    Disagree. Columbine could have been ended quickly. BG's don't like when the good guys are armed and fight back.

  4. #19
    Member Array GrandBob's Avatar
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    There have been some really good points here.

    I guess I'll need to re evaluate my position as the precision shooter up behind the sound man in the balcony.There have been a few issues, the loud music sometime interferes with my tactical headset. I thought maybe I could take care of that with my palm mike, but that only seemed to make it louder.Every now and then the feedback from being in such close proximity to some of the mikes would result in a loud screech that could be heard throughout the whole church. It was quite annoying at times.

    I need to show this thread to my Pastor so that he can talke away some ideas from it.I really do think we need to rethink the way we do things. I've said all along that the MP'5s we kept slung across our backs presented the wrong image to new comers.At least the response group listened to me when I mentioned hearing protection, it wasn't long until we upgraded to the MP5SD3's.

    Also... some of the new comers were alarmed when they spotted the muzzle break of my M8A1 Barrett covering the whole congregation. I thought that I had camouflaged it well enough with the wiring from the sound console, but some movement must have given me away. I've been thinking of downgrading to a Remington in .338 Lapua since it was pointed out that an errant round might bust the Baptistry and whoever might be kneeling at the altar could possibly drown.

    As for the box of flash bangs beside me, that could be dropped on the heads of someone intent to doing no good, I thought it was a good idea too... right up until kids from a visiting church that were competing in the Bible quiz started chunking them at each other. It was OK until the pastors wife walked in an someone messed up her new hairdo. That caused a scene that I would rather not have to do over and a sight that I would rather not have to remember. She is an otherwise attractive woman, but when that flash bang went off in her hair...well...lets just say that it's going to be awhile before the hair on the left side of her head grows back and the stitches that are holding her ear on finally dissolve.

    There are many things to consider when initiating a response team for the church. There are many possible scenarios that must be adequately addressed and lots of unforeseen circumstances, like the time that Jim Bob dropped his MP5SD3 and it went off full auto. Luckily it only hit the church bell, but the bell being clanged at that odd time of day bought all 3 city fire Dept's to the church, complete with lights and sirens which wasn't a bad thing, except that when Truck No. 3 ran from the North-side of town, it accidentally ran over the Mayors dog. He was not happy about that and the Pastor of the church was somewhat embarrassed when he explained that it was just a "false alarm". The only reason that he didn't get a cite for a false alarm was that the Sheriff is also member of our church and was able to talk the Fire Chief out of it..and most of us suspect that was only because he invited him to the next potluck dinner.

    I'm going to point this thread out to my Preacher so that we can rethink some of our tactics. I appreciate the advice and insights provided here.

    There are just so many issues that one can not really plan for,like the one time I was lugging that .50 BMG up the stairs. Doing it evry Sunday Morning, Sunday Night and Wednesday night was a chore. I nearly threw my back out of place when I accidentally jammed the muzzle break right into the posterior of the Choir Director as she was going up the stairs and she took off running...right off of the balcony. I had to drop the gun and catch her before she went over. I barely made it. I haven't got over that back injury yet. My chiropractor, (also a member) says that if she would have weighed maybe 200 pounds less, my injury wouldn't have taken so long to heal up and my hearing hasn't returned to normal yet.

    There are lots of things to think about when setting up the Church Swat Team. By far, the best thing about it is the "working dinners" that go with it. Sometimes though, it can be pretty tedious.

    I wish you luck.

  5. #20
    VIP Member Array TN_Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by katmandoo122 View Post
    Wow. Well, whatever floats your boat and whatever you feel you need to do to protect your community. Having said that, I do not think I'd be a member of a church that set up a Church Tactical Response Team armed with handguns unless said church was in Fallujah. Something about it just seems to be counter to what the bearded founder of the church talked about.

    Of course, that's different from individual parishioners deciding to carry everywhere, including church. But to set up a dedicated armed church group just seems odd to me. But I'm not trying to stop you...if that's what your church feels it needs, who am I to judge?
    I could not disagree with this statement more. "The bearded founder" preached self defense and that one's life is sacred and a gift from His Father and was not to be wasted or thrown away. I believe that He would be very much in favor of the flock defeding itself with all the means necessary.
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  6. #21
    Distinguished Member Array INccwchris's Avatar
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    GrandBob, I think you owe me for a new laptop, this one just got milk sprayed all over it...............
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  7. #22
    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    There are many churches that have people who CC .... in various areas around the church for strategic reasons. However, you are stepping into a whole planned security approach that has legal ramifications, in many cases requires licenses, etc. and without them .... can lead to one heck of a lawsuit. I'm check local laws, etc. and know how far ... is too far.

    Just because someone has a CCL, doesn't mean they are an expert in security, or tactical anything.
    I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts. --- Will Rogers ---
    Chief Justice John Roberts : "I don't see how you can read Heller and not take away from it the notion that the Second Amendment...was extremely important to the framers in their view of what liberty meant."

  8. #23
    Member Array Druff's Avatar
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    There have been some really good points here.

    I guess I'll need to re evaluate my position as the precision shooter up behind the sound man in the balcony.There have been a few issues, the loud music sometime interferes with my tactical headset. I thought maybe I could take care of that with my palm mike, but that only seemed to make it louder.Every now and then the feedback from being in such close proximity to some of the mikes would result in a loud screech that could be heard throughout the whole church. It was quite annoying at times.

    I need to show this thread to my Pastor so that he can talke away some ideas from it.I really do think we need to rethink the way we do things. I've said all along that the MP'5s we kept slung across our backs presented the wrong image to new comers.At least the response group listened to me when I mentioned hearing protection, it wasn't long until we upgraded to the MP5SD3's.

    Also... some of the new comers were alarmed when they spotted the muzzle break of my M8A1 Barrett covering the whole congregation. I thought that I had camouflaged it well enough with the wiring from the sound console, but some movement must have given me away. I've been thinking of downgrading to a Remington in .338 Lapua since it was pointed out that an errant round might bust the Baptistry and whoever might be kneeling at the altar could possibly drown.

    As for the box of flash bangs beside me, that could be dropped on the heads of someone intent to doing no good, I thought it was a good idea too... right up until kids from a visiting church that were competing in the Bible quiz started chunking them at each other. It was OK until the pastors wife walked in an someone messed up her new hairdo. That caused a scene that I would rather not have to do over and a sight that I would rather not have to remember. She is an otherwise attractive woman, but when that flash bang went off in her hair...well...lets just say that it's going to be awhile before the hair on the left side of her head grows back and the stitches that are holding her ear on finally dissolve.

    There are many things to consider when initiating a response team for the church. There are many possible scenarios that must be adequately addressed and lots of unforeseen circumstances, like the time that Jim Bob dropped his MP5SD3 and it went off full auto. Luckily it only hit the church bell, but the bell being clanged at that odd time of day bought all 3 city fire Dept's to the church, complete with lights and sirens which wasn't a bad thing, except that when Truck No. 3 ran from the North-side of town, it accidentally ran over the Mayors dog. He was not happy about that and the Pastor of the church was somewhat embarrassed when he explained that it was just a "false alarm". The only reason that he didn't get a cite for a false alarm was that the Sheriff is also member of our church and was able to talk the Fire Chief out of it..and most of us suspect that was only because he invited him to the next potluck dinner.

    I'm going to point this thread out to my Preacher so that we can rethink some of our tactics. I appreciate the advice and insights provided here.

    There are just so many issues that one can not really plan for,like the one time I was lugging that .50 BMG up the stairs. Doing it evry Sunday Morning, Sunday Night and Wednesday night was a chore. I nearly threw my back out of place when I accidentally jammed the muzzle break right into the posterior of the Choir Director as she was going up the stairs and she took off running...right off of the balcony. I had to drop the gun and catch her before she went over. I barely made it. I haven't got over that back injury yet. My chiropractor, (also a member) says that if she would have weighed maybe 200 pounds less, my injury wouldn't have taken so long to heal up and my hearing hasn't returned to normal yet.

    There are lots of things to think about when setting up the Church Swat Team. By far, the best thing about it is the "working dinners" that go with it. Sometimes though, it can be pretty tedious.

    I wish you luck.
    HAHAHAHA I was also wondering if this "Church Team" the OP posted was in Waco Texas.

    But seriously, I think it is a bad idea unless you are licensed security personnel.

  9. #24
    VIP Member Array Sheldon J's Avatar
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    Check out a thread I posted some time back "Kind of Comforting" .... the sound booth is in the mostly unused balcony, with only two access points, that are easily observed with out being easily seen. My issue has been should there be an event, it would be real handy to know who all the friendlies are, and just what their skill level is and just who you can expect help from if SHTF.
    I know mine, but a lot of guys once they get their CCW stop there, little range time, no advance training, (been trained by Gabe Suarez on several advance classes as well as my own range) so to keep the cowboy syndrome out of the equation. So we need to do a meet and greet, get some ideas from the rest of the group. In Mi castle law is very well written, and with the blessings of the church as long as we do not go nuts and militia (cameo, riffles, tactical gear).... So how many of you remember just last year when a church team member took down a perp bent on murder?
    Multiple scenarios require multiple responses, from the estranged spouse, to some nut job with a bent on mayhem. Exiting, wall structure, type and number of access points, side rooms, who is normally where and when, and just who all the familiar faces are. Some churches have a person posted at entrances, yes the act like a greeter but have a look at the bulge on their strong side.....

    We all need to hope for the best while planning for the worst....
    "The sword dose not cause the murder, and the maker of the sword dose not bear sin" Rabbi Solomon ben Isaac 11th century

  10. #25
    Member Array tomtsr's Avatar
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    Sheldon,

    Your OP didn't sound much like you were looking for another occurance of the OK Corral so the cowboy issue never crossed my mind. Neither did the commando militia.

    Congrats on the training. Sounds like you have your situation well under control. My advice is make sure that your team does as well as possible.

    I'll bet your pastor and congregation will be more at ease knowig that their church is prepared for the worst. God forbid that you ever have to act, but better to be prepared and not need it than need it and not be prepared.

    I wish you and your team the best. If nothing else, you will have a good basis for a small group study.
    Train like your life depends on it, because it does.

    NRA Life Member

  11. #26
    Member Array bugboy's Avatar
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    Man, some of you guys must live in pretty scarey places! SWAT teams at church; folks carrying 3-4 guns daily; feeling the need to carry 2 or 3 extra 17 round mags; carrying in the shower; etc. I'm glad I live outside of "small town Kansas". I'd hate to walk around all day thinking that I'm going to get gunned down / mugged / raped at any minute.

  12. #27
    Member Array tomtsr's Avatar
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    Bugboy,

    Small town Kansas may be utopia where you live, but a quick search will provide the fact that Kansas is no different than anywhere else. Towns like Goodland KS population 5000, Pope KS Population 358, Baxter Springs KS population 4600, Powhattan KS population 85, Westwood KS population 1500, Lakin KS population 2060, Severy KS population 400, Beloit KS population 3665 all have unsolved murders on the books.

    Rather than providing a dose of sarcasm filled with things that are found nowhere in this post, you might try to understand this. Just because you haven't experienced something doesn't mean it won't happen. I don't particularly see a need to prepare for a tornado. You in Kansas have much better need. You wouldn't find anyone here ranting about digging holes under our homes to run from the weather.

    This is an opinion place and you are entitled to yours. I appreciate healthy discussion. Too bad you obviously don't.
    Train like your life depends on it, because it does.

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  13. #28
    Distinguished Member Array C9H13NO3's Avatar
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    Having people who CC in church is great. There are several of us who CC in my church, and the pastor knows, not because we told him, it's just a close knit community and we know each other pretty well. Having "designated" people though is not a good idea. You're basically forming a security force. I would think to have designated people, you'd have to have those people get an armed security guard license.
    -Ryan

    All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

  14. #29
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    While I think your intent is good and well founded, I also see a industrial size can of worms being opened.

  15. #30
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    Next your gonna have bullet proof bibles, and don't forget riot shields with crosses on them for the entry teams. I just don't get it.
    One more step and it's on!

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