CTRT...

This is a discussion on CTRT... within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Stands for Church Tactical Response Team..... There are several of us who CC during service, I have what I refer too as the tactical Superior ...

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  1. #1
    VIP Member Array Sheldon J's Avatar
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    Thumbs up CTRT...

    Stands for Church Tactical Response Team..... There are several of us who CC during service, I have what I refer too as the tactical Superior position in the loft with the sound equipment, and I have told our pastor more than once "I have your back."
    He knows I CC and posted a thread here some time back "Kind of comforting" So imagine my surprise last week when it has suggested we form a CTRT. We are in process of scheduling a private meeting, to better get acquainted, check skill levels, do an on site assessment....

    So here I am thinking of various scenarios of exits, placement, type of attack, weapons involved, number of assailants, and your thoughts would be appreciated. Although we hope for the best we also plan and practice for the worst....
    "The sword dose not cause the murder, and the maker of the sword dose not bear sin" Rabbi Solomon ben Isaac 11th century

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    VIP Member Array paaiyan's Avatar
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    You need to find out what your local laws are on the matter. At what point do you stop being a group of guys who carry and become a private security force? You really need to understand the legal implications of what you're doing.
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    Distinguished Member Array INccwchris's Avatar
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    ummmmm, do any of you have private investigator or private security licensing because without that you could very well get in some legal trouble. Also, would reccomend changing the name to something less mall ninjaish. Third, how many entrances and exits are there, really are you seriously considering having a man at each exit, what kind of church is this that really needs a Tactical Response Team. Would reccomend going less tactical, and more undercover and aware of whats going on. You are setting yourself up for all kinds of liability with a name like that and with training and planning like some kind of SWAT team. Nothing wrong with knowing what everyone who carries in church would do, but what if someone new to your church CC's and dosen't inform you guys, he stands up when he hears shooting, aims at the bad guy and one of you drop him because he isn't "one of your team"
    "The value you put on the lost will be determined by the sacrifice you are willing to make to seek them until they are found."

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    Array OldVet's Avatar
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    By doing so you have left the realm of personal safety and have formed an "armed force." You may find that you have lost the coveraqge of many "personal protection" laws. I encourage you to fully investigate the reprecussions of forming any actual or implied "team." A huge liability policy would be in order.
    Retired USAF E-8. Avatar is OldVet from days long gone. Oh, to be young again.
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    Most of your issues will most likely be domestic disputes and domestic disputes involving kids/custodianship with a rowdy individual or two thrown in. I am not aware of any situation at a church in the US dealing with mutliple assailants. Even the worse case scenarios so far have been lone wolf shootings.

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    Member Array dtox's Avatar
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    I read the OP's post and didn't get the same impression that the rest of you guys got. Sounds to me like the OP is just talking about getting a group of guys together who all carry concealed to their church to have a meeting and to discuss possible scenarios, etc. I didn't get the impression that they would be acting as armed guards at the door. I agree that the name could go, but their hearts seem in the right place. Doesn't sound like a formal security force to me (again, except for the name).

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    Senior Member Array Phillep Harding's Avatar
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    We've already seen "bad guy and buddy" attacks, no split forces. Only a matter of time before we see multi-prong attacks on churches, malls, schools, etc here.

    OTOH, a lower profile would help the group survive to that time, IMO.

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    Member Array ws76133's Avatar
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    You really need to check with the church's insurance company. A local church here started an unofficial security force with CHL holders; outfitted them with 2-way radios. They all dress in black & really act like mall ninjas. Honestly, I think with their mindset, that they're a liability.

  10. #9
    Distinguished Member Array INccwchris's Avatar
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    Dtox, this line right here was where the mall ninja thought line occured "I have what I refer too as the tactical Superior position in the loft with the sound equipment," Gecko.45 almost exact channeling of him right there.
    "The value you put on the lost will be determined by the sacrifice you are willing to make to seek them until they are found."

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    VIP Member Array chiefjason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INccwchris View Post
    Dtox, this line right here was where the mall ninja thought line occured "I have what I refer too as the tactical Superior position in the loft with the sound equipment," Gecko.45 almost exact channeling of him right there.
    Jargon aside. If he is in the loft with the sound equipment, and it's like my last church. He has the best spot in the house to see everything. Maybe it makes a difference that I have seen something similar and had the very same thought. Imagine a balcony about 25 feet off the ground, on the back wall, with a ladder for access. Your only blind spot was directly under you.

    Some good suggestions about laws, insurance, and the like. My church is trying to set up a security team. If I had the free time on Sunday I would look into it. But it's all I can do to get to the main service.
    I prefer to live dangerously free than safely caged!

    "Our houses are protected by the good Lord and a gun. And you might meet 'em both if you show up here not welcome son." Josh Thompson "Way Out Here"

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    VIP Member Array rammerjammer's Avatar
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    Will armed parioshioners be descending from the air ducts?

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    Member Array tomtsr's Avatar
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    I am part of the team at my church.

    There are several things to consider when determining how superior a position may be. Your position may be superior in observance only.

    What needs to be factored in?

    Building - many building interiors are insulated drywall. What is behind that drywall? In one direction im my church is the cry room where parents take little ones who become restless. If you miss, or possibly hit your target and the bullet over penetrates, who is likey to get hurt.

    Angle of the floor - if you are higher than the BG, will your likely path take you into the congregation?

    Is there a balcony?

    Are you trained in active shooter response? In CO there is no state licensing requirement for security professionals. There may be local requirements that need to be met. You had better make shre that you and your team have training to fall back on. I can tell you that being a church member will in no way reduce the civil liabilities you could face.

    Do you have policies and procedures in place and have the members of your team read and signed them?

    I know that I sould like an attorney, but I have assisted security groups in the past and these are often overlooked.

    If you CC at church as an individual, great. But if you organize you need to make sure that your team and the church are prepared.

    Godspeed
    Last edited by tomtsr; February 16th, 2011 at 05:11 PM.
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    Member Array katmandoo122's Avatar
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    Wow. Well, whatever floats your boat and whatever you feel you need to do to protect your community. Having said that, I do not think I'd be a member of a church that set up a Church Tactical Response Team armed with handguns unless said church was in Fallujah. Something about it just seems to be counter to what the bearded founder of the church talked about.

    Of course, that's different from individual parishioners deciding to carry everywhere, including church. But to set up a dedicated armed church group just seems odd to me. But I'm not trying to stop you...if that's what your church feels it needs, who am I to judge?
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  15. #14
    Member Array tomtsr's Avatar
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    While I agree that it is a scary proposition to have to have an armed security team in church, it is far more scary that people could fall into the category of "That could never happen here."

    There was a time when the church was revered and treated differently than it is now. A search on Google will provide an overwhelming number of references to shootings that happen at church. People, BG's, are increasingly indifferent where and who they attack.

    We are on this site because we believe that being prepared personally to protect ourselves, family, and those closest to us is the right thing to do. Why shouldn't the church do the same?

    In 2007 an armed security guard shot and killed a gunman who walked into the New Life Church and killed 2 people in Colorado Springs. Far too often people die at a place of worship because of the lunacy of the gunman. Having a team prepared to defend the membership is not contrary to what the "bearded" founder was. He was likened to a shepherd. One who carried a staff to ward off predators. He himself grabbed a whip and ran the moneychangers out of the church to protect it.

    The worst thing that could possibly happen is to have untrained, well intending people get excited and filled with adrenaline doing what they honestly feel is the right thing to do, and have more people die by friendly fire than the BG. While you and I may train extensively at targets that stand there and let you poke holes in their paper existence, I can assure you that BG's aren't paper.

    That being said, make sure that your team isn't just a bunch of cwp holders doing the same thing. Get some training and prepare. Run through scenarios and practice.
    Train like your life depends on it, because it does.

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    VIP Member Array chiefjason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by katmandoo122 View Post
    Wow. Well, whatever floats your boat and whatever you feel you need to do to protect your community. Having said that, I do not think I'd be a member of a church that set up a Church Tactical Response Team armed with handguns unless said church was in Fallujah. Something about it just seems to be counter to what the bearded founder of the church talked about.

    Of course, that's different from individual parishioners deciding to carry everywhere, including church. But to set up a dedicated armed church group just seems odd to me. But I'm not trying to stop you...if that's what your church feels it needs, who am I to judge?
    At the time when the bearded founder walked the earth, there were temple guards. Jus sayin. Before the Roman guards, there were Jewish guards. At the Wailing Wall in Jerusalem, there are still guards. Maybe it's an American paradigm that we feel like we don't need security in a Church.
    I prefer to live dangerously free than safely caged!

    "Our houses are protected by the good Lord and a gun. And you might meet 'em both if you show up here not welcome son." Josh Thompson "Way Out Here"

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