Off Duty Cop Shoots Man In Bar.....
This is a discussion on Off Duty Cop Shoots Man In Bar..... within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; OldVet & Old School,
I agree that this is a learning forum and I am here not because I know it all, but to learn ...
February 17th, 2011 11:28 PM
OldVet & Old School,
I agree that this is a learning forum and I am here not because I know it all, but to learn with the rest of you all. I appreciate the ability to discuss these types of things as it could keep me or someone else out of jail.
To me, perspective is what I would like to discuss. Here is mine:
The OP stated that we should look at the question not from a LEO position. In my original post I stated that one of the options was to shoot the BG as he was shooting the first two. Imminent danger would have existed at that point and I would have been justified in shooting. If that was done the rest is not up for discussion. He is dead.
As I see the article, the BG was on his way out of the bar and not posing immediate danger to anyone else. The LEO was justified, and probably obligated to challenge the BG to stop. He identified himself as LEO and after doing so the BG turned and fired. IMO if there were no challenge there would have been no additional shooting. IMO and that is exactly what it is OPINION.
Had my choice been not to enguage immediately, and me not being a LEO I would have not called out to "Stop in the name of the LAW" he would have left the building without additional people being hurt. That being the case imminent danger would have ceased.
When did imminent danger cease is the real question. If your opinion is that once imminent danger existed it continued throughout the entire incident then you would be justified in shooting. I took it differently. That may be because I used to work in the court system and had many instances where there was a challenge as to the cessation of imminent danger. In Florida I might add.
I have no issue with your position whatsoever. I just took it a little more cautious path.
I also have no problem being wrong. In my nearly 60 years I have been wrong many times and, by God's grace, will be wrong many times in the future. I welcome discussions like this and hope to have many more in the future.
Thank you for not taking the road that many do and belittle someone because they take a different position that you. I appreciate that.
Train like your life depends on it, because it does.
NRA Certified Instructor
NRA Life Member
February 18th, 2011 12:38 AM
im gonna agree with tomtsr on this one, there is a threat to others, if i am on duty working my security job, i order him to drop it, he turns around and brings his weapon to bear i drop him, if im not working, im not engaging unless he is shooting at me. Even then if i can run out of the bar without being shot, or if i feel like he is not about to turn and shoot me, i do not drop him, i carry to protect myself and my family only. At work, different story, off work, me and mine come first
"The value you put on the lost will be determined by the sacrifice you are willing to make to seek them until they are found."
February 18th, 2011 07:47 AM
Exactly my reasoning for avoiding bars. That and I'm required to be unarmed in a bar, which is a double-whammy. It's a lose-lose environment.
Originally Posted by TN_Mike
You Can Also Find Me On Personal Defense Forum Dot Com
February 18th, 2011 08:45 AM
Thanks for the insightful replies folks.My bar hopping days have been over for a long time. Dinner and a cocktail in a nice restaurant are my speed now. With more states allowing carry in bars this type of incident may become more prevalent. I hope that is not the case. There is a post in Law-enforcement, Military and Homeland Security of an off duty cop trying to intervene in a bar fight and being paralized. Not much good comes out of bars.
Last edited by Old School; February 18th, 2011 at 01:13 PM.
February 18th, 2011 11:18 AM
Sad but true................. Not a LEO you should be calling 911 as you remove yourself from the situation.
Originally Posted by Old School
February 18th, 2011 12:58 PM
Originally Posted by TN_Mike
This could have literally occurred anywhere at any time to anyone.
Shootings by nutball dads at kid sporting events...Persons angry with snow plow drivers because they plowed snow too close to their car...Folks fighting in Target with a running gun battle inside the store as adults overbuying their child a copy of the last in stock XBOX game on the shelf.
Real world items that have happened last year in 2010 alone, and were featured here at DC.com in the GBU sub-area.
No bar nor alcohol required.
"Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy
"A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing
February 18th, 2011 01:04 PM
In MI, if you are not a LEO you may not legally carry in a bar. :(
But then it is very rare for me to be in a bar.
LEARN something today so you can TEACH something tomorrow.
Dominus Vobiscum <))>( Where is the wisdom that we have lost in knowledge?" T.S. Elliot
February 18th, 2011 02:10 PM
It seems pretty clear that LEO may be able to walk away from this shooting without being charged.
I have a feeling that any NON-LEO involved in the exact same scenario has a lengthy and expensive trial ahead of them.
In Nebraska we can't carry into a regular bar (majority profits coming from alcohol not food) so I wouldn't be armed anyway. Even if it wasn't a bar and I had my pistol unless the event is directly going to involve me I probably wouldn't get involved. Especially if he is leaving, it's a problem for the cops to deal with.
February 18th, 2011 02:25 PM
The ADW/murder is over unless he attempts to shoot someone else, all that remains is the apprehension.
Unlikely, as I don't frequent bars, but if I was there. Get to cover or out of his line of vision, if he tries to shoot anyone else, shoot him. If not, even though I could by my states statutes arrest him, get a good description, maybe peek out to door for a vehicle description. I'm retired, prevention..yes, apprehension most times...no.
"I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".
February 18th, 2011 02:30 PM
Originally Posted by archer51
February 18th, 2011 03:02 PM
Originally Posted by Kerby
February 18th, 2011 06:37 PM
I think specifying "bar" was a bad idea (and I'm not going to be in one to start with).
Now, some place else, I'm on the floor or out the door. If on the floor, I'm watching to see what he does with hand on gun. If he turns like he is going to start shooting the place up and I have a shot, I'm taking it. If he starts random executions, I'm taking the best shot I can find.
February 19th, 2011 07:51 AM
1-2 am in a bar in PHILLY, Guns, BOOZE, attitudes and personalities... It just not a good environment... right... wrong... policemen... civilian... when all these variables are put together, its like sleeping with a rattle snake. I'm not going to get into right and wrongs, but i always try to control my environments...
Originally Posted by Old School
when there's doubt--there is no doubt.
February 19th, 2011 08:55 AM
Yes they said that it appeared that the BG was turning to leave the building, but he wasn't out, he could have ust as easily turned around without the officer calling out to him. He could also be going out to his car for another gun and more ammo. I think we could possible assume that the two guys he already shot had friends there at the bar. How many people go to a bar alone and sit there alone?
If the friends had tried to intervene there would have been many more people shot. I know thats a lot of what if's but they are things to consider.
I do also agree with Janq that if I was going to draw on this guy I am not giving him a warning. As the article said the BG took a shot at the officer. I am not going to give him a chance to send a little lead pill my way.
February 19th, 2011 10:12 AM
We can't carry into a bar in FL, but not much good happens in bars after evening hours anyway.
According to court records, Rose was awaiting trial on charges of aggravated assault, recklessly endangering another person, and resisting arrest in connection with an arrest last May.
He had also been sentenced to one to two years in prison after pleading guilty to robbery in Philadelphia Common Pleas Court in 2007....was just a repeat offender, looking for a place to become a dead offender...glad he found his place.
Proverbs 27:12 says: “The prudent see danger and take refuge, but the simple keep going and suffer for it.”
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