Off Duty Cop Shoots Man In Bar.....

This is a discussion on Off Duty Cop Shoots Man In Bar..... within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; My question here is what would you do if you were in the same situation as the officer but were not a LEO ? http://www.policeone.com/police-prod...ls-man-in-bar/...

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Thread: Off Duty Cop Shoots Man In Bar.....

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array Old School's Avatar
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    Question Off Duty Cop Shoots Man In Bar.....

    My question here is what would you do if you were in the same situation as the officer but were not a LEO ?

    http://www.policeone.com/police-prod...ls-man-in-bar/
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    Sounds like he needed to be shot.
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    Member Array tomtsr's Avatar
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    Sounds like the officer saved the state a lot of money for lawyers and prision staff. At least for this BG.

    To answer your question as to what I would do, Not being a LEO would put me in somewhat of a position. I could perform a citizens arrest and hold the perp; could be a good witness and get all the details; or I could have shot the BG as he was shooting others in the bar.

    I never want to see the BG leave the scene but in a crowded bar, I'm not sure that I would shoot. Too many opportunities for what happened already, that being a bystander shot and killed. The fact that the BG was leaving the bar indicates that the factor of imminent danger would be negated and the defense of protecting the lives of myself or others would be gone. I'm afraid the DA and jury would see it as me being a vigilante.

    That being said, as much as I would like to do otherwise, I become the state's star witness.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    Sounds like he needed to be shot.
    True, BUT not my problem as a civilian, first sign of trouble exit stage left. The easiest gun fight to win is the one you are never involved in.

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    Senior Member Array GoBigOrange's Avatar
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    well since I'm not a LEO I don't have the same powers. If the guy was leaving the place I'm not going to try and stop him. But if he continues to shoot up the place and I have a clear shot then I'm going to do my best to take him out.

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    In the State of Florida deadly force can be used if you or someone else is in eminate, immediate danger of death or great bodily harm.That was the case in this particular senario. That being said, any self defense shooting is going to involve courts and attorneys and legal decisions and possible law suits and this is for a justified shooting. Just some thoughts.
    "Violence is seldom the answer, but when it is the answer it is the only answer".

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    Member Array tomtsr's Avatar
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    Old School,

    Not to argue, but the article indicated that the BG was headed out of the bar which removes imminent danger.

    Quote from article: The off-duty officer, who was in plain clothes, witnessed the altercation and pulled out a firearm as the assailant was about to leave the lounge,

    I'm not an attorney, and I didn't spend the night in a Holiday Inn, but I think I would loose that battle in court. One question from the DA about the direction the BG was heading would send me where he was heading before being shot.
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    tomstr, to disagree, the shooter was still armed and potentially dangerous, as evidensed by the fact he turned and fired when commanded to stop. On that there can be no disagreement. The off-duty LEO was 100% justified in my opinion.

    Moving on, FL law does allow deadly force in an event such as this. Would I do so? Probably not unless he directly threatened me or someone else once I encountered him. Probably not? Well, I'm not there when this happened so anything I say I would do is pure speculation. I tend to move away from gunfire, not toward it. It's a self-preservation thing.
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    VIP Member Array Old School's Avatar
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    Hey Tomtsr this is a learning discussion on a forum it's all good.The BG has already shot two people and when the officer yells to him and identifies himself he shoots at the officer. He has shown a perpencity to shoot others at random and indiscriminantly. You yell at him to stop and he turns and shoots at you. Or lets say he is leaving and you do not say anything to him, are you in fear for your life as long as he is in the bar ? Could he turn around at anytime and continue his shooting spree ? Could you shoot him in the back ? Just thoughts and what if's.
    "Violence is seldom the answer, but when it is the answer it is the only answer".

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    Since I am not a LEO, my option would be to be a good witness. That being said, my hand would be on my gun, and if the BG showed any indication of coming back to finish what he starte, I would do what was needed to defend myself.
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    VIP Member Array tkruf's Avatar
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    I'm going with the keep out of it, unless he comes back for more, crowd on this one. Be a good witness and self preservation is the name of the game. If he turns around and continues to play shooting gallery, then if I have a clean shot, I'm taking him out.
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    At the first sound of gun shots I'm heading for either hard cover or concealment, and from there an exit.
    I wouldn't have seen the shooter because I'd be looking at a side, back or front exit door.

    I'm not a police, nor Batman.

    But lets say this happened smack dab in front of me real time he fires on the first guy, hit s him and round continues on to drop a backgrounder.
    Well now he's standing there with a _weapon_ (no longer just a 'gun') and has demonstrated himself to be a clear _immediate_ danger as by mentality as well as action.
    The last thing I'd do as a _civilian_ is order verbal command for him to stop or drop the gun and some other garbage.

    I'm not a police, nor Batman.

    Instead I would think to take any shot I can get that would functionally put him down.
    Why?
    Because not being a police I am not required to identify myself to him nor am I required to give the guy a 'second chance' and thus expose myself to real and imminent danger, allowing the threat to choose to spin and take a shot at me.
    Not being a police, nor Batman, I don't have to play by po-po rules and regs of engagement.

    As by my states laws I was in real imminent danger.
    Persons around me in the immediate air space were in real imminent danger.
    The threat had already committed not one but two felonys of violence and he by reasonable man standard point of view appears to be interested in making a third effort if and whe he chooses, in the immediate.

    So if that had happened directly in front of me as within my ability to take a _reasonable_ shot (no across the bar room bullets whizzing between persons standing/running by efforts), then yes I would have engaged and shot him albeit with zero warning and likely a shot to the upper back and spine or to the base of the head.

    Immediately thereafter I'd by programming as a sub-routine think to _quickly_ scan the room for secondarys (accomplices/cohorts), and then I'd very loudly advise everybody to leave the building while myself _re-holstering my sidearm_ back to concealment and third making a call to 911 to report the incident and myself at location X.
    I would very much expect to be arrested, cuffed and possibly treated roughly as well. Why? Because I'd be viewed as being 'a shooter', until the smoke clears and the screaming stops.. : |
    It would go to trial because it's mandatory to do so in MA and with that I'd be sure a jury of my Commonwealth peers would find me not guilty on any and all charges.

    I would not in my wildest dreams though want to ever be involved in nor witness to a scenario such as this.
    Always I carry when I go to bars, clubs or any place where idiots and mental people might choose to hang out.

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    As a non LEO, I am not allowed to carry into a bar, so there would be no option in this case for me to intervene in any way. I don't like going places where I can't carry, so I kind of doubt I would be in the bar in the first place.

    Now if we relocate this scenario to a restaurant where I can legally carry. Texas statutes don't give me the ability to use deadly force after the commission or attempted commission of murder or unlawful deadly assault. For property I can chase them down, but not once an attack is over against a person. Don't tell me I don't make the rules, the Texas legislature does.

    So after the attack is over and if the BG is leaving the place and not presenting a threat to anyone else, there isn't much I can do based on Texas statutes. If however he turns around for no apparent reason and has a deadly weapon pointed in my direction then the scenario changes.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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    Janq,

    We must have been typing at the same time. Thanks for the slow motion TV image of the bullet wizzing across the crowded bar that magically finds its mark on the BG instantly killing him.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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    I don't go to bars, for this this reason. So i can't really say what I'd do because you won't ever see me in a bar. Bars are places people go to drink and get drunk. People who have been drinking and are drunk tend to lose the ability to think rationally. People who do not think rationally tend to do stupid and violent things. I try very hard to avoid people who do not think rationally and do stupid things that would require them to be shot.
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