An interesting article about the aftermath of a deadly force encounter

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Thread: An interesting article about the aftermath of a deadly force encounter

  1. #1
    Distinguished Member Array MinistrMalic's Avatar
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    An interesting article about the aftermath of a deadly force encounter

    Read the article here

    The entire article is interesting to me, but for other DC folks the first section is interesting even if you're not a church-goer. The FIRST THREE SHOTS missed him; it was when he engaged the gunman and actually had the gun in his hand that the gunman was able to hit him. WOW.

    Second thought here: there were hundreds of people at church that morning. Had the pastor been armed, could he have returned fire? With his backstop being his congregation, could he have drawn a weapon and engaged it in the fight? I doubt it. THIS is why a team of people is necessary, and why someone else needed to be ready to defend the pastor from a DF encounter.

    I feel for his wife and kids.
    "...whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one." (Luke 22:36)
    Christianity and Self Defense from a Biblical Perspective

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    This is heart-breaking. However, in the spirit of avoiding this event in the future, what can we learn from this? I'm not a highly-trained operator. However, I do believe the Good Lord gave me a measure of common sense to make up for what I didn't get in good looks.

    One thought I had was that distance was his friend. By closing that distance in a failed attempt to disarm the perp, he died. I don't think many trained professionals would have attempted that. If I was pastoring a congregation, I'd live my life knowing that the attack was coming and invest time and money on training accordingly. Given that shooting into a congregation likely isn't going to be an option, a large portion of my training would be hand-to-hand, as well as when to hold 'em/ fold 'em/ walk away / run away.

    I also would not sponsor a church 'security team'. Protecting my congregation means not only in the spiritual and physical sense, but also in the legal sense. Having my church sued into obilivion is not a merit badge that I want. I would appreciate having trusted armed folks in the congregation, but I would be careful to seperate the church from any form of sponsorship.

    'Just a few passing thoughts on this.
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    Ex Member Array Kerby's Avatar
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    Incredible; Not sure that could happen in VA. The state has made it clear not to have a Gun in church (that would have stopped him!)

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    VIP Member Array goldshellback's Avatar
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    Just a couple of men sitting there in the pew's could've 'pounced' and pinned the gunman......recognition, then action. I'd have to hesitate firing (if there and armed) due to the church being filled with the congreation. VERY tough situation but an armed response (be it a sponsered 'team or just armed members in attendence) would've helped. I think a mass 'bum-rush' would've ended it.
    "Just getting a concealed carry permit means you haven't commited a crime yet. CCP holders commit crimes." Daniel Vice, senior attorney for the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, quoted on Fox & Friends, 8 Jul, 2008

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    Distinguished Member Array Chaplain Scott's Avatar
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    I've THINK I read somewhere that the US Air Marshals have speciality ammo that IIRC breaks up inside the BG, so as not to pass-thru and penetrate other passengers or the skin of the aircraft---not sure if this is true or not. If true, could this ammo be useful in this type of situation??
    Scott, US Army 1974-2004

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaplain Scott View Post
    I've THINK I read somewhere that the US Air Marshals have speciality ammo that IIRC breaks up inside the BG, so as not to pass-thru and penetrate other passengers or the skin of the aircraft---not sure if this is true or not. If true, could this ammo be useful in this type of situation??
    If so, only if you don't miss. That's a heck of a backstop behind the bad guy.
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    Distinguished Member Array Chaplain Scott's Avatar
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    If so, only if you don't miss. That's a heck of a backstop behind the bad guy
    Yeah--no kidding!! This would be a terrible situation any way you look at it.

    One slim possibility is, if you had the presence of mind, and physical location, would perhaps be to change the angle of your shot--if behind the BG, if you went to a knee and fired upward, or if in a loft and firing down, the angle difference might be enough to reduce danger to innocent congregants....... this would be a good place for a Crimson trace or lazer max sighting device.......
    Scott, US Army 1974-2004

    Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children what it was once like in the United States where men were free.
    - Ronald Reagan

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    A team? All the ushers? All the people in the front row? Who? Crossfire issues at the least. The same can be said for several individuals who are carrying but not part of a team, though.

    How best to stop such an attack? No guns on church campus but the security team? Security team well trained, licensed, etc. Liability insurance?

    Lots to think about from a church perspective.

    In the Tucson shooting, how long before someone carrying reacted? The deed was already done. In the case of the shooting linked... three shots were fired, the pastor had to tell people it was real. Then he chose to try to disarm the shooter. Now, in the course of events, he's too close to risk a shot.

    In active shooting scenarios, what I see is that people are slow to react. I'm certain I'm no exception. Good people are going to be injured or die before the BG is taken down by whatever means. A team will not prevent the occurence. may lessen the body count.

    Look at Secret Service (let's say they are the ideal team). They are primarily a reactionary team, once the threat actually begins. They go through a TREMENDOUS amount of work prior to POTUS' arrival on scene to lessen the exposure of POTUS, and so that they don't have to react. When the preparations weren't thorough enough... people got shot.

    A church team really can't do that. So, they are restricted to being a reactionary team. Time will make for casualties.

    I don't have any answers... only positing questions as how best to handle the potential situation.
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

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    Senior Member Array CR Williams's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaplain Scott View Post
    I've THINK I read somewhere that the US Air Marshals have speciality ammo that IIRC breaks up inside the BG, so as not to pass-thru and penetrate other passengers or the skin of the aircraft---not sure if this is true or not. If true, could this ammo be useful in this type of situation??
    Memory says Air Marshals used to load Glasers. Last information I have is that the now use regular Gold Dot. Penetration of the aircraft skin is not the problem it's made out to be in movies. The shoot-through is more of a problem they would be concerned with.
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    Senior Member Array sdprof's Avatar
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    Churches are becoming scenes of violence more than you might think. Here's some stats over the years. Note the number of incidents per year, about the middle of the page.
    ~~~~~
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    I remember that day....My church is about 10 miles away. I am in charge of security as is a retired FBI agent. We met within 5 minutes of getting the news about Pastor Winters...I lived closer to the church and my co-leader sent me home to get my weapon. Upon returning to the church (15 minutes) I asked him if he wanted to carry it...he told me that he was comfortable with me carrying my weapon as I was more familiar with it. That night he and I were armed at church....walking around the church to make sure the area was secure. Today, I and the ushers sit throughout the church in various areas to be there if the need arises. I place myself about the 8th row back in a spot where I can see the entire church. What I did was illegal but would do it again....it was a mind numbing event and I never met the man. I did however met Ms. Winters a year later as she opened up the 1st church safety/security seminar with prayer. She is an amazing woman...

    I just hope and pray that Illinois gets a concealed carry soon.

    BTW...What happened to Pastor Winters could not have been prevented at that moment in time. It took precious seconds for things to register and for reaction to take place. Shame....
    I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness,
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    VIP Member Array Sticks's Avatar
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    A tragic event.

    At least somebody did something, instead of playing the part of the grass eater and waited to die. Had the pastor done nothing, then there potentially would have been more victims (shooters intent unknown).

    As for if the pastor had been armed, he was in a position to fire back with reasonably low risk of collateral damage since his shots would have been at a down angle to the shooter, and up what appears to have been an empty aisle.
    poppy37 likes this.
    Sticks

    Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
    A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
    See also Sheep

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    Member Array newhunter1's Avatar
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    Sticks,

    Carrying a weapon in Illinois is very much against the law. Pastor Winters was not a man to carry a weapon and could not have reacted in the way you stated...unfortunately there are many pastors who cut from the same cloth...nothing against him. I only wish a LEO had been there, and was carrying at the time. Tragic for sure.
    I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness,
    nor the arrow for its swiftness,
    nor the warrior for his glory.
    I love only that which they defend.

    -J.R.R. Tolkien

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    VIP Member Array miklcolt45's Avatar
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    As a pastor of a large congregation (not a megachurch like the one described in the article), when I am on the platform in any scenario, every backdrop WILL have people in it. It is a nightmare scenario. Without having read the entire article yet, Pastor Winters' reaction may have been the only possible one other than running and leaving his people vulnerable. Even here in Florida where I can carry a weapon. Tough situation...
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliott

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    VIP Member Array Sticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by newhunter1 View Post
    Sticks,

    Carrying a weapon in Illinois is very much against the law. Pastor Winters was not a man to carry a weapon and could not have reacted in the way you stated...unfortunately there are many pastors who cut from the same cloth...nothing against him. I only wish a LEO had been there, and was carrying at the time. Tragic for sure.
    My bad, did not realize it was IL where this occurred.

    Thought process was along the lines of "what could have been done" in a society where the application of certain amendments is adhered to.
    Sticks

    Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
    A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
    See also Sheep

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