Search warrants and the castle doctrine

This is a discussion on Search warrants and the castle doctrine within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by rammerjammer No knock warrants are unconstitutional in my opinion. They are too fraught with problems and clearly violate the fourth amendment. It ...

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Thread: Search warrants and the castle doctrine

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by rammerjammer View Post
    No knock warrants are unconstitutional in my opinion. They are too fraught with problems and clearly violate the fourth amendment.

    It may seem permissible to use them against criminals, but there are too many possibilities for their implementation to go completely wrong.
    LIke going to the wrong address...by mistake?
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  3. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post
    LIke going to the wrong address...by mistake?
    They may end up in the mayor's house, shooting his dog...

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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    Wikipedia...

    Ah.

    I see.

    Nevermind.
    It's a fact.... a no knock warrant, is just that.... the police can enter without knocking , without notifying the owner before entry, etc. It was developed at first so that drug dealers could not flush the stash and / or grab a gun. However, it is definitely in conflict with today's world with the castle doctrine and guarding against home invasions. So, it's not a joke... and these two things are in direct conflict with each other. I think no knock warrants should be banned.

    I think if you think you are immune to this happening to you, you are kidding yourself.

    There have been cases, where they entered the wrong home.... and the owner with his gun in his hand got shot and killed.... this has occurred more than once.

    One case, the homeowner stopped a burglar and was holding him at gunpoint, and the dispatcher was advised the owner had a gun, and the idiot who entered.... saw him standing over the other person with a gun in his hand, then proceeded to shoot and kill the home owner even though the guy's wife was yelling... "that's my husband, that's my husband".

    If someone comes busting thru my door, whoever it is.... is not going to be met with a happy smile.
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  5. #19
    VIP Member Array rammerjammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post
    LIke going to the wrong address...by mistake?
    Yes, that's exactly the point. There are too many instances when the cops have knocked down the wrong door, you're foolish to think it couldn't happen to you.

    And even if it doesn't happen to you, the constitution was meant to protect all Americans, not just you.

    Most on this site could quote you the second amendment, but how about the Fourth Amendment? Even criminals are protected by the Constitution and Bill of Rights. It may not always be fair, but our founding fathers knew there is no such thing as a completely fair governmental system.

  6. #20
    VIP Member Array rammerjammer's Avatar
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    Forgot to mention that if support for no knock warrants stems from support for taking down drug dealers, the War on Drugs is one of the most abysmal failures of American foreign and domestic policy.

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    You realize Wikipedia is not a verified or trusted source of information? Not to mention the fact that out of 50 states plus DC, there are 51 different procedures for obtaining a warrant. You would be better served checking your own state's law.
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  8. #22
    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rammerjammer View Post
    Forgot to mention that if support for no knock warrants stems from support for taking down drug dealers, the War on Drugs is one of the most abysmal failures of American foreign and domestic policy.
    It was , and you are right.
    I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts. --- Will Rogers ---
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  9. #23
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    LOL. Ignorance is bliss. Carry on, dont mind me. I'm just the guy sitting in the back ground chuckling at the chuckles.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  10. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by sentioch View Post
    The castle doctrine gives a homeowner the right to defend his home with lethal force to prevent unlawful entry. A search warrant allows police to make forced entry into a home but they are not required to show the warrant to the homeowner.

    Does anyone else see the catch-22 in this?
    If I find my door being broken down by people who are unannounced, unknown to me, not obviously LEO, then I'm treating it like it should be: unwarranted felony person crime on me and mine. I'll resist, if I'm able.

    Since I am not a criminal and am highly unlikely to get a forcible break-in of the sort described, it's highly unlikely that any forced entry on my home is from the "Avon lady."

    But reality often moves very quickly. I'm hoping my hardened exterior can gain me sufficient time to respond. I'm hoping the "attacker's" entry through my home takes long enough for me to be wide awake and capable of withstanding the breach. I can only hope. If it turns out the breach is instant and I'm in the first room, it's highly likely that I won't have any time to do much other than back up a few steps. So, most of this rationalizing and hypothesizing is moot, beyond a general prep and training for home invasions.


    ... if you don't figure it out in time and act correctly then you may be dead or on trial for murdering a LEO.
    In the USA, we live in states that basically seek the frying of a citizen who dares lift a finger against law enforcement, almost without regard to their right to do so. In such an unannounced, unmarked, unclear situation as a violent entry on a citizen's home, in many states it's entirely within the right of a citizen to treat such a situation as a violent felony in progress ... and to resist to the degree necessary to halt the attack. I'm going to do just that, in such a situation, if I'm able. But I'm not so naive as to believe there won't be one heck of an attempt to fry me for it. So be it. This is the sort of thing that must be resisted, if at all possible, else we're already living in a society not worth defending. YOMV, YMMV.
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  11. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagleks View Post
    It's a fact.... a no knock warrant, is just that.... the police can enter without knocking , without notifying the owner before entry, etc. It was developed at first so that drug dealers could not flush the stash and / or grab a gun. However, it is definitely in conflict with today's world with the castle doctrine and guarding against home invasions. So, it's not a joke... and these two things are in direct conflict with each other. I think no knock warrants should be banned.

    I think if you think you are immune to this happening to you, you are kidding yourself.
    Why, thank you. I'm well aware of no-knocks in the course of my practice.

    As for these laws being in conflict - direct or otherwise...is that your opinion unsupported by fact, or do you have any actual scholarship on the issue upon which you base this opinion?

    I find people's reliance on wikipedia laughable, especially those who purport to attempt to be well informed. Wikipedia is an extremely poor information source rife with inaccuracies, bias and unsupported information.

    An armed man may be a citizen, and an unarmed man a slave; but an uneducated man or one who cannot be bothered to correctly understand the system of law in which he lives is easily and quickly transformed from the first into the latter.

    It's hilarious that people who are supposedly so gung-ho on freedom and the constitution never seem to bother cracking the spine on a college level constitutional law text book and reading the blasted thing.

    You (generic you) care so much about guns and gun rights? Really?

    OK.

    Put up or shut up. Go dump that P220 Ernest Langdon edition, take the cash and go take a college 101 or 102 constitutional law class.

    You can't protect your rights if you don't know what they really are. I don't mean what you think they are, or what you believe they are based on "I read the constitution and talked about it on the net with some people who seem to know what they are saying..."

    I mean actually doing the work.

    Yeah. Not going to happen.

    People who wait till they need the Right to Bear Arms to protect their rights don't deserve to keep the rights, or the arms.
    SIXTO and mr.stuart like this.

  12. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    LOL. Ignorance is bliss. Carry on, dont mind me. I'm just the guy sitting in the back ground chuckling at the chuckles.
    Ignorance isn't bliss.

    It's orgasmic...and addictive.

  13. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by chivvalry View Post
    Still have to process that the person leaping at you with a deadly weapon through the door they just smashed off its hinges is screaming "POLICE" is actually a LEO correctly... and quickly enough to immediately drop your weapon and assume a non-threatening position while they tackle you, throw you to the ground, and hog tie you or you get shot and killed... Hope you guessed right and its not a new home invasion technique.
    Even worse, they don't have to yell "POLICE". You are required by the law to "know or reasonably should have known" that they are police, or your not protected under this law.

  14. #28
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    Although written in 2006, this is a fairly solid resource:

    Overkill: The Rise of Paramilitary Police Raids in America | Radley Balko | Cato Institute: White Paper

    Over the last 25 years, America has seen a disturbing militarization of its civilian law enforcement, along with a dramatic and unsettling rise in the use of paramilitary police units (most commonly called Special Weapons and Tactics, or SWAT) for routine police work. The most common use of SWAT teams today is to serve narcotics warrants, usually with forced, unannounced entry into the home.
    Other than the above, I'm going to just wait for Sixto to chime in. I suspect you're in cuffs before you realize you need to wee real bad.

  15. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by crabbys44 View Post
    You realize Wikipedia is not a verified or trusted source of information? Not to mention the fact that out of 50 states plus DC, there are 51 different procedures for obtaining a warrant. You would be better served checking your own state's law.
    You know, people like you really piss me off. He asked a stupid question and I gave a stupid answer. You need other sources to make you feel better about yourself? Here.

    Garland, Texas Officer Sued Over Fatal Drug Raid Shooting - Kenneth Baulch killed holding nothing but an ashtray.
    Explore Howard: Home raid leads to complaint - Mike Hasenei is injured and his dog killed when police raid his house looking for his stepson. They find nothing.
    'I'm not the murderer they make me out to be,' Frederick says | HamptonRoads.com | PilotOnline.com - Ryan Frederick's dogs wake him up, he grabs a gun and shoots at what he believes to be intruders. His house had been broken into a few days before, by the informant whose tip police used to get the warrant. An officer was killed.
    Ex-Atlanta officers get prison time for cover-up in deadly raid - CNN - 92-year-old Kathryn Johnston is killed in a botched drug raid based on falsified paperwork.
    Colorado News and Denver News: The Denver Post - Ismael Mena is killed during a raid by police. They got the wrong address.

    Here's a map with several instances of innocents killed during botched raids:
    Botched Paramilitary Police Raids

    Here's a map with a whole lot of raids on innocent victims:
    Botched Paramilitary Police Raids

    And here's a government site which states that the court believes that no-knock warrants are legitimate:
    AUTHORITY OF FEDERAL JUDGES AND MAGISTRATES TO ISSUE "NO-KNOCK" WARRANTS


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    Double post.....
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