You walk out of Walmart.

You walk out of Walmart.

This is a discussion on You walk out of Walmart. within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; There is a van pulled up by the front door. As you walk in front of it, you see three teens grab another teen, drag ...

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Thread: You walk out of Walmart.

  1. #1
    Senior Member Array JohnK87's Avatar
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    You walk out of Walmart.

    There is a van pulled up by the front door. As you walk in front of it, you see three teens grab another teen, drag him to the van and throw him in the door, then they start to take off.

    What do you do, if anything?

    This happened to me, but before I had a carry permit. I called 911 on the cell, gave them the vehicle description and license plate. They had the van pulled over within minutes on a felony stop.

    What happened? Bunch of high school kids doing an initiation for a sports team. I bet the felony stop experience really helped them bond.
    ‎An enemy of liberty is no friend of mine. I do not owe respect to anyone who would enslave me by government force, nor is it wise for such a person to expect it. -- Isaiah Amberay


  2. #2
    Senior Member Array JohnK87's Avatar
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    My answer would probably change if it were a child, though. No way I could let that one go.
    ‎An enemy of liberty is no friend of mine. I do not owe respect to anyone who would enslave me by government force, nor is it wise for such a person to expect it. -- Isaiah Amberay

  3. #3
    Distinguished Member Array INccwchris's Avatar
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    A woman or child being dragged kicking and screaming "help me help me" into a van by three men feet away from me calls for more than just dialing 911 and giving a good description. In Indiana it clearly states lethal force can be used to protect a third party so I would draw my weapon, step in front of the van and yell for him to step out. If he does not comply and drives towards me, he has chosen his option and I will fire, I would then display my ccw sash and prepare to receive my medal. However in most cases it would not be happening within feet of me, it would be across a parking lot, a block down, at another entrance, etc. etc. etc. It also will probably not be as clear a situation as to what is going on. Therefore this calls for a more tactful option, calling 911 would probably be the best solution to the immediate problem, make sure to give a clear description of the vehicle, the woman/child/man being grabbed and the suspects. Also the direction the vehicle is traveling. If I am in my vehicle, I will follow them until law enforcement arrives and they can felony stop both of us until the mess gets sorted out. Normally if it is a child being grabbed you will also be hearing "let go of my kid!" and many expletives being shouted. If it is three guys grabbing a guy or three girls grabbing a girl, I am more inclined to lean towards frat or team hazing but will still call 911 and follow the vehicle.

    There is no clear action that one should immediately jump too. This is too complex a situation to be jumping to a conclusion and drawing and firing to stop the driver. Bad news bears if you misinterprete the situation and shoot a frat boy pranking one of his roommates. So in lamens terms my response is layered, anywhere from calling 911 with descriptions and following the perps car, to lethal force would be an option.
    Last edited by INccwchris; March 15th, 2011 at 12:54 AM.
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    Distinguished Member Array kelcarry's Avatar
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    C'mon now guys. You have no idea what is happening except the physical facts your eyes see. There are many reasons what you see have nothing to do with a crime or any reason whatsoever for you to intervene, especially with a firearm. You become a good witness, get the license and other info in your head and call 911--that is what you do and nothing else. The Alter Ego Rule, which basically says you can intervene in a third party situation as if the person being attacked is you, clearly uses the terms "imminent danger of death or great bodily injury" as a precursor, and shoving someone into a van or a car is not imminent anything other than a ride someone did not want to take. If you are so inclined to stick your business into their business you are now risking the escalation of a non-threatening event into something that you, as a CCer, are now in the middle of, while the parties involved are at a hightly agitated emotional state and may say or do something that gets you to the point of thinking about your firearm, which can cause you a lot of trouble, since you were the instigator. You are CC to primarily protect yourself--you are not the guard to everything holy going on around you

  5. #5
    VIP Member Array PAcanis's Avatar
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    I would probably yell, Hey, what's going on? I don't think I would do anything differently whether I was carrying or not.
    A license to carry does not mean after putting on your holster you tie on the red cape. IMO.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnK87 View Post
    There is a van pulled up by the front door. As you walk in front of it, you see three teens grab another teen, drag him to the van and throw him in the door, then they start to take off.
    What do you do, if anything?
    Step 1 - Get the heck out of the way of the van. As stated, they appear to be prepared to run you over. I know some would draw and fire, but that ain't stopping an accelerating van that you are, apparently, feet from.

    Step 2 - Be a good witness - license plate, vehicle description, description of perps if I could get it and a call to 911.
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  7. #7
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    Spend some time on this forum and it becomes clear that WalMart is the most dangerous place in America.
    CyanLite and jsmindwarp like this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PAcanis View Post
    I would probably yell, Hey, what's going on? I don't think I would do anything differently whether I was carrying or not.
    A license to carry does not mean after putting on your holster you tie on the red cape. IMO.
    While I agree with you that a license to carry concealed does not make you a cop, it doesn't mean you have to stand around like a wilting daisy. If I saw what I thought was a kidnapping in progress I would act. It doesn't mean I would pull my gun necessarily. Pulling a phone and taking a good picture of the driver (if I'm on that side) and the license plate before calling 911 comes to mind. If I'm on the curb side then grabbing the victim and pulling them back out of the van and yelling for help might be the right move.

    Not every good deed involves pulling a gun.
    It is surely true that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. Nor can you make them grateful for your efforts.

  9. #9
    Member Array Cabreco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnK87 View Post
    This happened to me, but before I had a carry permit. I called 911 on the cell, gave them the vehicle description and license plate. They had the van pulled over within minutes on a felony stop.
    You did EXACTLY what you should have done. Why? because you are not Robocop, just because you have a CCW doesn't make you "DEFENDER OF THE UNIVERSE". Your CCW is as said in another reply, to protect you & your own.
    Imagine if you will the bizarre!
    Let's expand the scenario, you draw your weapon, the teenagers inside draws an Airsoft Glock (red tip you didn't see), as he thinks you are part of the game, you shoot, you hit your target center mass, killing him, but one bullet passes cleanly through him and ricochets off the van hitting a baby in a stroller, severing his spinal cord.
    EPIC FAIL!
    1. Your life is ruined
    2. You butt is sued
    3. You conscience will haunt you

    Worth it?
    You did the right thing...PERIOD!
    tcox4freedom likes this.

  10. #10
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INccwchris View Post
    A woman or child being dragged kicking and screaming "help me help me" into a van by three men feet away from me calls for more than just dialing 911 and giving a good description. In Indiana it clearly states lethal force can be used to protect a third party so I would draw my weapon, step in front of the van and yell for him to step out. If he does not comply and drives towards me, he has chosen his option and I will fire. However in most cases it would not be happening within feet of me, it would be across a parking lot, a block down, at another entrance, etc. etc. etc. It also will probably not be as clear a situation as to what is going on. Therefore this calls for a more tactful option, calling 911 would probably be the best solution to the immediate problem, make sure to give a clear description of the vehicle, the woman/child/man being grabbed and the suspects. Also the direction the vehicle is traveling. If I am in my vehicle, I will follow them until law enforcement arrives and they can felony stop both of us until the mess gets sorted out. Normally if it is a child being grabbed you will also be hearing "let go of my kid!" and many expletives being shouted. If it is three guys grabbing a guy or three girls grabbing a girl, I am more inclined to lean towards frat or team hazing but will still call 911 and follow the vehicle.
    Oh, c'mon... The OP was far fetched enough, though it may have actually happened... but nowhere did it say anything about a damsel in distress or a child. Nobody was screaming help me... no expletives... and no phone booths nearby to change into my super hero outfit.

    Quote Originally Posted by INccwchris View Post
    There is no clear action that one should immediately jump too. This is too complex a situation to be jumping to a conclusion and drawing and firing to stop the driver. Bad news bears if you accidentally shoot a frat boy pranking one of his roommates. So in lamens terms my response is layered, anywhere from calling 911 with descriptions and following the perps car, to lethal force would be an option.
    Don't give it to us in lay man's terms... we want to know what spec ops would say... There is no "accidentally shooting a frat boy" when you're standing in front of the vehicle pointing your weapon at the driver and yelling at the him to step out... If I were the driver, I'd just step ON it... and you'd be a smear.

    Quote Originally Posted by satori59 View Post
    Spend some time on this forum and it becomes clear that Wal Mart is the most dangerous place in America.
    It may not be the most dangerous place in America... but it certainly can be the weirdest.

    Actually, armed or not, I think the OP did the right thing in the situation given... and, correctly determined that if it was a frat prank... they all bonded over it and will regale each other with "Do you remember when..." stories for years... Glory Days By The Boss
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cabreco View Post
    Let's expand the scenario, you draw your weapon, the teenagers inside draws an Airsoft Glock (red tip you didn't see), as he thinks you are part of the game, you shoot, you hit your target center mass, killing him, but one bullet passes cleanly through him and ricochets off the van hitting a baby in a stroller, severing his spinal cord.
    And then after shooting a baby your next round is deflected up by the inside of the windshield. It passes through the top of the van and travels skyward. It keeps going up until it hits the oxygen tanks of the space station in orbit. The space station explodes killing all of the astronauts on board. You create an international incident and cause at least three wars. Our government would like to convict you of a crime but sadly, a piece of falling space station landed on your head killing you instantly.
    It is surely true that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. Nor can you make them grateful for your efforts.

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    VIP Member Array PAcanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    While I agree with you that a license to carry concealed does not make you a cop, it doesn't mean you have to stand around like a wilting daisy. If I saw what I thought was a kidnapping in progress I would act. It doesn't mean I would pull my gun necessarily. Pulling a phone and taking a good picture of the driver (if I'm on that side) and the license plate before calling 911 comes to mind. If I'm on the curb side then grabbing the victim and pulling them back out of the van and yelling for help might be the right move.

    Not every good deed involves pulling a gun.
    Where did I say I would stand around "wilting like a daisy"?
    I clearly said that I would try to find out what was going on, regardless if I was wearing a gun or not.

    Unless of course it's night time, in which case no one ventures outside after dark...
    lolololol

  13. #13
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    As a private citizen, I have a formula for intervention. Generally speaking, take the action that has the greatest effect on the situation with the least amount of personal intervention.
    In this case, with the information presented which is probably less than would be perceived in person, I would call 911, possibly get a pic, veh descrip, susp descrip, possibly follow at a distance.
    What you have is suspicious circumstances, possibly a crime, at this point.
    Back to the formula. In this situation, the above action fits the formula. Other situations might require different actions.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by PAcanis View Post
    Where did I say I would stand around "wilting like a daisy"?
    I clearly said that I would try to find out what was going on, regardless if I was wearing a gun or not.

    Unless of course it's night time, in which case no one ventures outside after dark...
    lolololol
    I'm sorry. It must have been the sarcastic red cape = act like superman wisecrack that caused me to misread the intent of your post.

    Lastly, I didn't mean to imply that you were a "wilting daisy". What I meant to imply was that a person, any person, doesn't have to sit back and watch something potentially bad happen. Just because you carry a gun doesn't mean every scenario has to involve lethal force. In this case (or similar) I could easily see myself using my hands to help the potential victim.

    I wouldn't try to stop the BGs from leaving or shoot their tires out or anything else silly. I think that trying to pull the potential victim back out of the van could be the right move. If it turns out to be a prank then no big deal. If it turns out to be the real deal then perhaps you may save that person's life. YMMV.
    It is surely true that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. Nor can you make them grateful for your efforts.

  15. #15
    Senior Member Array dripster's Avatar
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    What if the kids were making a movie for school? You stand in front of their vehicle and draw your weapon. You have now escalated the situation into a deadly physical force encounter, how you ask; kids get scared and try to drive off you shoot them dead. When will you realize you are not a cop, let the cops handle it. Dial 911 and give a good description. A ccw is not a badge to go out and do real police work.


    Quote Originally Posted by INccwchris View Post
    A woman or child being dragged kicking and screaming "help me help me" into a van by three men feet away from me calls for more than just dialing 911 and giving a good description. In Indiana it clearly states lethal force can be used to protect a third party so I would draw my weapon, step in front of the van and yell for him to step out. If he does not comply and drives towards me, he has chosen his option and I will fire. However in most cases it would not be happening within feet of me, it would be across a parking lot, a block down, at another entrance, etc. etc. etc. It also will probably not be as clear a situation as to what is going on. Therefore this calls for a more tactful option, calling 911 would probably be the best solution to the immediate problem, make sure to give a clear description of the vehicle, the woman/child/man being grabbed and the suspects. Also the direction the vehicle is traveling. If I am in my vehicle, I will follow them until law enforcement arrives and they can felony stop both of us until the mess gets sorted out. Normally if it is a child being grabbed you will also be hearing "let go of my kid!" and many expletives being shouted. If it is three guys grabbing a guy or three girls grabbing a girl, I am more inclined to lean towards frat or team hazing but will still call 911 and follow the vehicle.

    There is no clear action that one should immediately jump too. This is too complex a situation to be jumping to a conclusion and drawing and firing to stop the driver. Bad news bears if you accidentally shoot a frat boy pranking one of his roommates. So in lamens terms my response is layered, anywhere from calling 911 with descriptions and following the perps car, to lethal force would be an option.
    One more step and it's on!

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