"Conversational" distance? - Page 2

"Conversational" distance?

This is a discussion on "Conversational" distance? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by azchevy It is really hard to compare law enforcement experiences to how it will go down in the real world with civilians. ...

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Thread: "Conversational" distance?

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array TedBeau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by azchevy View Post
    It is really hard to compare law enforcement experiences to how it will go down in the real world with civilians. Perps treat civilian marks a lot differently than they would an encounter with someone in law enforcement. Most often than not the contact is initiated by LE not the perp and the perp is desperate, may have priors and does not want to go back to prison or has extreme hatred for authority causing them to react desperately in a fight and or flee situation. With civilians, they treat them as targets and are offensive, not defensive. They plan on victimizing you... two completely different animals.
    I have to agree with AZ on this one. A perp would have to be really desperate to draw on an LEO while/during an interview. Since they know the cop is armed they most likely rush the draw and fire, causing them to hit low. I would think that since most of them are right handed they probably fire straight perpendicular to their body with gun off to right side, which would result in hits on officers left leg, not right. Maybe their mexican carrying and the gun is pointed across their body, they fire before they get it straight and up.
    Pehaps the police departments need to issue bullet proof chaps.


  2. #17
    Member Array Timezoneguy's Avatar
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    Some very good points. Folks who truly need help are more than willing to follow commands
    In a gun fight, you can not miss fast enough, to catch up.

  3. #18
    TVJ
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    Quote Originally Posted by TedBeau View Post
    Pehaps the police departments need to issue bullet proof chaps.

    Standard issue in San Fran.


    I just learned Suarez Patiki (sp?) getting off the X this weekend in my Fof class

    Initially quite difficult to understand muscularly, but really effective getting off line and getting back the drop on the BG.
    "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it."
    - Frederic Bastiat

  4. #19
    3D
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    Guantes

    A big THANK YOU for posting the Force Science News article.

    "We're not working with no marksmanship....We just putting it in your direction, you know....It don't matter...as long as it's gonna hit you...if it's up at your head or your chest, down at your legs, whatever....Once I squeeze and you fall, then...if I want to execute you, then I could go from there."
    Chilling and sobering clues to how I should be practicing from the more 'successful', effective street combatants.
    "It is easier to resist at the beginning than at the end"____Leonardo da Vinci 1452-1519

  5. #20
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Your Welcome. It seemed relative to the discussion.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  6. #21
    Senior Member Array Chad Rogers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TVJ View Post
    Standard issue in San Fran.


    I just learned Suarez Patiki (sp?) getting off the X this weekend in my Fof class

    Initially quite difficult to understand muscularly, but really effective getting off line and getting back the drop on the BG.
    Pekiti Takeoff?

  7. #22
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    At these distance, regardless of your locomotion method, if you do not have the initiative (he's drawn and you are not), without an edge (distraction, throwing wallet, etc), plan on taking hits. That is not to say that moving can not provide an advantage, just that it is not at its best as a stand alone tactic at these distances.
    Old School likes this.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  8. #23
    TVJ
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chad Rogers View Post
    Pekiti Takeoff?
    yes; thx.


    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    At these distance, regardless of your locomotion method, if you do not have the initiative (he's drawn and you are not), without an edge (distraction, throwing wallet, etc), plan on taking hits. That is not to say that moving can not provide an advantage, just that it is not at its best as a stand alone tactic at these distances.

    Thx; We intend to test this with airsoft. Our learning distance was about 8-10ft this past weekend.

    I wonder if you have a distraction suggestion for a non-robbery/wallet related situation.
    "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it."
    - Frederic Bastiat

  9. #24
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Anything that might buy you a split second or so and require some reorientation on his part. Something tossed in the air, keys, Zippo, etc. Even an arm movement up and out to the side with an open palm, so no threat is perceived, preferably near opposite to the direction of your intended move.

    This is very difficult to practice as your opponent will usually know you are gong to move and will disregard any distraction you attempt. In which case you get plugged. We (a well known movement/PS instructor and I) gleaned this from experiments we ran.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  10. #25
    VIP Member Array shockwave's Avatar
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    I believe the point he's trying to make is that the average thug is , for the most part, a crappy shot.
    Read the linked article again. It's saying exactly the opposite - the perps in question have better accuracy than LEO. Then again, so do most CC owners who train regularly.

    The actual number of perps selected for the study was small. This kind of low-powered (n=<1000) study shouldn't be taken as gospel. It's a data point for you to file into your general understanding of the matter and interpret in accordance with your experience and judgement.

    Another thing to keep in mind, for those of you who practice with airsoft or dummy pistols, is that at "conversational distance" you may have a far better chance at surviving the encounter by moving off-line and gaining control of the BG's weapon. In drills I've practiced the reaction-time penalty for the shooter is significant.

    test this for yourself. How much can you do in one second? You should be able to do quite a bit. And that's about how long it's going to take for the BG to realize that you are not complying and are (ha ha) doing something off-script and unexpected. Then he has to decide whether or not to shoot. As we've seen in countless videos of actual crimes in progress, not all perps elect to shoot. (This is a weakness in the aforementioned linked study.)

    So in fact, you may very well have 2 or 3 seconds at your disposal. If you're training for fast-draw at the range, in competition, at home, you are probably averaging around 1 to 2 seconds. At distances of 6 feet or more, moving off the X and trying a draw may be the better strategy, but inside 6 feet going for the perp's gun will probably result in greater success. As always, test with a friend and confirm or disprove for yourself.
    "It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."

  11. #26
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Personal attributes and circumstances often point the way to the best action.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  12. #27
    Senior Member Array Chad Rogers's Avatar
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    In addition, the data suggests that our ability to be effective with a pistol at ranges out to fifteen meters is critical. We can hit consistently at extended ranges. They can't. So long as we do not allow them to get close, they remain at a critical disadvantage.

    /John
    I think that is easier said than done when your profession is one that requires closing the distance and engaging with the public.

  13. #28
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shockwave View Post
    So in fact, you may very well have 2 or 3 seconds at your disposal. If you're training for fast-draw at the range, in competition, at home, you are probably averaging around 1 to 2 seconds. At distances of 6 feet or more, moving off the X and trying a draw may be the better strategy, but inside 6 feet going for the perp's gun will probably result in greater success. As always, test with a friend and confirm or disprove for yourself.
    As to that in bold; I myself do not want to be in a struggle over control of a firearm with someone. Yes I train to do gun take aways but wish to be face to face when doing them. So I would opp to still move off the X at the 6' range moving to the 1 or 11 o'clock and shoot the BG in the side or back of the head as I went by. At that range I would most likely move to my 1 o'clock, I am right handed this would give me gun retention and would less likely have a gun grab attemp by BG.

    Just me: Take it for what it cost
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

    "Is this persons bad behavior worth me having to kill them over?" Guantes

  14. #29
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    The smaller the distance, the greater the correction required for the aggressor to target forward oblique movement and the less time available to do it.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  15. #30
    TVJ
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    Anything that might buy you a split second or so and require some reorientation on his part. Something tossed in the air, keys, Zippo, etc. Even an arm movement up and out to the side with an open palm, so no threat is perceived, preferably near opposite to the direction of your intended move.

    This is very difficult to practice as your opponent will usually know you are gong to move and will disregard any distraction you attempt. In which case you get plugged. We (a well known movement/PS instructor and I) gleaned this from experiments we ran.

    Thx for this
    "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it."
    - Frederic Bastiat

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