"Conversational" distance?

This is a discussion on "Conversational" distance? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; 21 Dec 00 John Farnam's Quips - 21Dec00.html "Conversational" distance? Another issue that jumped out at me from the latest iteration of SOP-9 is that, ...

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    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    "Conversational" distance?

    21 Dec 00
    John Farnam's Quips - 21Dec00.html
    "Conversational" distance?

    Another issue that jumped out at me from the latest iteration of SOP-9 is that, when NYPD officers are shot by criminal suspects (this excludes accidental shootings):

    (1) The distance from the officer to the suspect is "conversational" (six meters and in), and

    (2) The part of the officer's body most often hit is the lower abdomen and right leg

    This suggests to some that criminal suspects only shoot at officers within a six-meter radius, but statistics do not bear that out. In actuality, criminal suspects shoot at officers at ALL ranges, but they usually are unable to hit the officer until they get within six meters. Even then, they typically jerk their shots low and left, striking the officer in the lower abdomen and/or the right leg.

    This suggests to me that our ability to unerringly detect and verbally "arrest" suspects at a distance greater than six meters and then keep them from getting closer is an important skill. It also suggests that our ability to identify and skillfully use movement and available cover is also critical.

    In addition, the data suggests that our ability to be effective with a pistol at ranges out to fifteen meters is critical. We can hit consistently at extended ranges. They can't. So long as we do not allow them to get close, they remain at a critical disadvantage.

    /John
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    Yup. Distance is our friend.

    {edit}

    This reminds me - I was talking with a hunting buddy the other day. He's one of the most lethal killers there are when it comes to critters, but has never demonstrated much interest in the self-defense realm. Carrying a gun for such a purpose just doesn't seem like a real need to him.

    He was telling me a story of a bum that he ran into in the woods while he was hunting. He said the guy was a crazy-mess. When the guy started to approach him, my friend had the presence of mind to yell out to him to make no further advance to approach him. They held a conversation at shouting-distance until my friend was able to determine that the guy was not actually a bum, but had been in a boating accident and was looking for help. My friend simply told him that the story sounded fishy, but if it was true, he should have no problem lying face down with his hands locked behind his head while my friend called in help. I'll spare you a long, detailed story, but it turned out to be the truth and my friend was able to call in an ambulance, as well as call the guy's father to let him know the kid was okay. I was impressed at how well my friend handled the situation and the common-sense steps he took to keep every tactical advantage over the guy.

    Distance was key here in keeping my friend safe, while assessing the situation.
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    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Any information is valuable.
    The following would seem, to some extent, to contradict the idea that criminals are poor shots and often miss.
    Force Science News

    As with many things circumstances, training and experience figure into the best action. Sometimes, far is better, sometimes close, sometimes very close.
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    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    With tongue in cheek, as long as we keep moving to the BGs left and going up a stairs we should be fine.
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    Thanks Mitchell,,,,,,,,


    Good stuff!



    Quantes,

    I believe the point he's trying to make is that the average thug is , for the most part, a crappy shot.

    Do some of them get lucky and connect with GOOD hits??
    Of course.
    But most of them are as nervous as a hooker at confession, and therefore have a hard time with good hits.
    Every now and then monkey's fall out of trees though, and some get lucky.
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    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    I understand your point, but the article I referenced was not related to luck. In addition, I prefer to not prepare with the idea that I will encounter an LCD thug.

    A polite comment. I am "gloves", not the airline.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    A polite comment. I am "gloves", not the airline.
    It might not be such a bad thing. Your net worth would probably be much higher.
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    VIP Member Array chiefjason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    (1) The distance from the officer to the suspect is "conversational" (six meters and in), and

    (2) The part of the officer's body most often hit is the lower abdomen and right leg
    /John
    Just kind of wondering out loud here. That is a serious jerk, even for a newb shooter. I'm not sure most guns have enough trigger travel to allow for that kind of movement in the wrist/finger. Assuming he is aiming at COM and hitting low abdomen/leg.

    Could be another option though. If you point shoot from the draw, and level the gun, you hit low abdomen most times. You have to practice to hit COM. Shoot from the waist and you generally hit the target around the waist. We shooters generally think of point shooting as a skill, but in this sense it's pretty basic.

    The only problem is it does not fit the gang banger sideways Glock mentality. Interesting though.
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    Member Array Boreal21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill MO View Post
    With tongue in cheek, as long as we keep moving to the BGs left and going up a stairs we should be fine.
    That's the first thing I thought of too. I have no formal training, but reading this forum regularly gives me ideas of how to protect myself in SD situations. One thing mentioned often is "getting off the X". I'm going to try and make a habit of stepping left when I practice that, as my natural tendency is to step right. I think a quick step left combined with blading my body would make me a tougher target to hit by someone with a heavy trigger finger.

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    Ex Member Array azchevy's Avatar
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    It is really hard to compare law enforcement experiences to how it will go down in the real world with civilians. Perps treat civilian marks a lot differently than they would an encounter with someone in law enforcement. Most often than not the contact is initiated by LE not the perp and the perp is desperate, may have priors and does not want to go back to prison or has extreme hatred for authority causing them to react desperately in a fight and or flee situation. With civilians, they treat them as targets and are offensive, not defensive. They plan on victimizing you... two completely different animals.

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    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by azchevy View Post
    It is really hard to compare law enforcement experiences to how it will go down in the real world with civilians. Perps treat civilian marks a lot differently than they would an encounter with someone in law enforcement. Most often than not the contact is initiated by LE not the perp and the perp is desperate, may have priors and does not want to go back to prison or has extreme hatred for authority causing them to react desperately in a fight and or flee situation. With civilians, they treat them as targets and are offensive, not defensive. They plan on victimizing you... two completely different animals.
    I see this as a disadvantage for civilians. The reason being that if the perps are shooting well under the stress of a fight or flee LE encounter, I would expect that they would shoot better when under less stress, being on the offensive against a civilian target. It seems generally accepted that people shoot better when under less stress.
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    Distinguished Member Array INccwchris's Avatar
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    woah woah woah woah!!!! you mean theres a guantes airline?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
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    Quote Originally Posted by azchevy View Post
    It is really hard to compare law enforcement experiences to how it will go down in the real world with civilians. Perps treat civilian marks a lot differently than they would an encounter with someone in law enforcement. Most often than not the contact is initiated by LE not the perp and the perp is desperate, may have priors and does not want to go back to prison or has extreme hatred for authority causing them to react desperately in a fight and or flee situation. With civilians, they treat them as targets and are offensive, not defensive. They plan on victimizing you... two completely different animals.
    This is a good point. I'm tempted to take it a step further - where in many threads I see LEO tactics offered as advice to civilians. I see a distinct difference in the tactics that are best used in the two roles. I'm very interested in LEO tactics, and have learned a lot from the contributors here on DC. However, I digest the data in the context of my private-citizen lifestyle.
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    Ex Member Array azchevy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WHEC724 View Post
    This is a good point. I'm tempted to take it a step further - where in many threads I see LEO tactics offered as advice to civilians. I see a distinct difference in the tactics that are best used in the two roles. I'm very interested in LEO tactics, and have learned a lot from the contributors here on DC. However, I digest the data in the context of my private-citizen lifestyle.

    I agree 100 percent. As an LE you have access to partners, backup units, radio, sometimes GPS and live cameras, for instant backup. As a civilian, you are on your own against the threat. By the time LE responds it will be long over. The tactics are different and the stats that are recorded regarding threat distance and number of shots fired etc are normally tailored to the LE community as that is where the data is collected. You should train as if you are alone, carry appropriately and move away from the threats, not like you are clearing a room trying to take out threats offensively like some swat or spec ops team. You are also not going to go all MMA on someone and have a wrestling or kickboxing match like on TV..... You can't radio in shots fired and have units converge instantly on your location that you previously called in to dispatch. It is you and the threats. Deal with them violently to stop them and move swiftly away from danger. Shot placement, space and speed are your friends.

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    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    I think that specific circumstances will determine if the tactics that might be used by LE would be beneficial to civilians. In some cases they might be, in others not. The catagory is too broad for an overall yes or no answer.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

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