Dog Charging: Real and non Pitbull

Dog Charging: Real and non Pitbull

This is a discussion on Dog Charging: Real and non Pitbull within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Just had a situation. Writeup got a little long for the pitbull thread so I started a new one. I offer this thread as food ...

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Thread: Dog Charging: Real and non Pitbull

  1. #1
    Senior Member Array TVJ's Avatar
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    Dog Charging: Real and non Pitbull

    Just had a situation. Writeup got a little long for the pitbull thread so I started a new one. I offer this thread as food for thought about how I approached a real situation tactically that worked.



    I run my pointer/heeler. I well exercised dog is a happy dog (same with owner).

    My glock is at home. Sometimes I run with it, sometimes not. When without it, I carry two knifes - one each hip: benchmade LDK weakside and Spyderco Civilian strong side. Thats all besides wallet and dog poo cleanup bags. I respect my neighborgood.

    While running through the neighborhood, middle of the street, relaxed and thinking about whatever, I hear a growl and noise. By the time I look left to the noise, I see a roughly 40lb husky like dog charging, growling, full sprint, straight line directly at me and my dog. Its already nearly at the sidewalk 10yards est from me and my dog.

    My first instinct in these situations is to pick my dog up. Thats worked well up to this point and with very small dogs. This dog closed too fast.

    I noticed that I made immediate instinctual response: SCREAMING Gutteral Command Voice: NOOOOOO NOOOOO NOOOOOO while pointing at it. It was pretty cool....just came out immediately and naturally...zero effort.

    As I did this, I squared up with the dog, got my dog behind me, and began thinking and preparing for my right hand to grab the dog as my right pointing hand tracked the dog closer to me (leash in left hand to pull my dog back) and use my body to shield.

    With my square up, voice and point, the charging dog stopped on the street/sidewalk off the family's property dead in its tracks.

    It moved back into its yard as I stared it down and continued my gutteral NO's we egressed backwards and away as dog stayed in yard.

    Command voice was the least invasive answer to the problem.

    The next immediate transition if voice/posture failed: me between both dogs with my pointing hand tracking and coming down on the scruff preferably or anything else...then transitioning to weight of my body putting it down on its side for subdue as I let go of leash to isolate head and bite away.

    None of that transition needed. Lots of seriously loud command voice, square up, pointing and the "I will F- You up" vibe stopped the threat.

    I was really happy this worked. I love animals, especially dogs.


    Thoughts:

    Gun would have been very high risk with my dog moving and in the mix. Such high risk I avoid it. Much prefer the control of blade along with the ability to use progressive levels of force with the blade. There was no time for pepper spray before the dog was on us. What I had time for was tracking with my pointing hand to "attack" and capture the scruff. I used what little time I had to really concentrate on this action. Once I get scuff, I am good to go.

    If this was a pit bull, I would have done the same thing, but risk of my injury through a bite goes up greatly. There was such little time. Right hand to stop/slow/deflect dog, left hand goes for Benchmade on weak side and cuts dog until it stops being a threat.
    The United States Constitution 1791. All Rights Reserved.

    "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it."
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  2. #2
    Ex Member Array Kerby's Avatar
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    "I was really happy this worked. I love animals, especially dogs."


    I am happy this worked for you too!!!!! I love Dogs like you do but they can be really scarry sometimes.

    I wish people would take care of thier dogs it would save everyone a lot of trouble...

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    VIP Member Array Old School's Avatar
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    Cool

    I know this is redundant to some who have been following the "dog attack" threads however the ability to have options in a self defense situation with humans or animals is essential. Strikes, kicks, impact weapons, pepper spray all can work to your advantage. If lethal force is needed then by all means it should be used, however it should be used as a last resort not an only option.

    photo.jpg photo.jpg

    Click on photo to enlarge.
    "Violence is seldom the answer, but when it is the answer it is the only answer".

    "A nation of sheep breeds a government of wolves".

    http://www.woundedwarriorproject.org/

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    Member Array LoadedPipes's Avatar
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    Someone should do a thread about charging dogs inside a walmart and watch everyone go wild.

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    VIP Member Array PAcanis's Avatar
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    If you had been running with a pitbull instead of a heeler, you wouldn't have had to go through with all that bother.

    Sorry, couldn't resist.

    I'm glad everything worked out. How close did the dog actually get. Why wouldn't pepper spray have been an option? I thought you said it stopped before it got to you, but then you said you didn't have enough time for pepper spray. I didn't understand that part. I've been trying to remember to carry my spray more regularly, regardless of the fact I have a gun and knife on me.

  6. #6
    Distinguished Member Array tcox4freedom's Avatar
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    A gun is ALWAYS a high risk choice.

    I think you handled it almost identical to what I would do. But, I'm usually trying to protect the other dog from my 84lb pitbull.

    I have let my dog take the bite instead of me once or twice because he is fairly well trained at protection; and can usually get control the the other dog real quick. (He can even disarm an assailent faster than you can blink!) Then, once the other dog is pinned down, I can get a "safe" hold on the offending dog and call my dog off.
    Last edited by tcox4freedom; March 19th, 2011 at 02:55 PM.

  7. #7
    Distinguished Member Array mr.stuart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoadedPipes View Post
    Someone should do a thread about charging dogs inside a walmart and watch everyone go wild.
    That would be a good one.This forum gets frisky with the dog attack threads.Me? I carry a big walking stick,the tip is 1" progressing to 4" at the top.So far the dogs do not want to try me.
    Old School likes this.
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    When the past smothers the present, there is only desperation. When the future absorbs the present, life stands still. In either case a decision must be made because you only live now and you are only what you are now.

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    VIP Member Array Old School's Avatar
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by mr.stuart View Post
    That would be a good one.This forum gets frisky with the dog attack threads.Me? I carry a big walking stick,the tip is 1" progressing to 4" at the top.So far the dogs do not want to try me.
    +1

    And the chances are pretty good they never will.
    mr.stuart likes this.
    "Violence is seldom the answer, but when it is the answer it is the only answer".

    "A nation of sheep breeds a government of wolves".

    http://www.woundedwarriorproject.org/

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    Member Array dtox's Avatar
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    Hmmm. I wonder if the owner had an invisible fence. One of those wires buried in the ground around the yard's perimeter that prevents the dog from leaving by sending a signal to a shock collar.

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    Distinguished Member Array kelcarry's Avatar
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    It is nice to read majority opinions that seem to put a firearm as the last choice. Too many of the posts on the other thread scare me a bit when the preeminent means to literally avoid any potential (not even imminent) threat is to pull out a gun and start shooting. This not only goes for dogs but also the threads that seem to deal with "incidents" at Walmarts et al.

  11. #11
    Senior Member Array TVJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old School View Post
    I know this is redundant to some who have been following the "dog attack" threads however the ability to have options in a self defense situation with humans or animals is essential. Strikes, kicks, impact weapons, pepper spray all can work to your advantage. If lethal force is needed then by all means it should be used, however it should be used as a last resort not an only option.

    photo.jpg photo.jpg

    Click on photo to enlarge.

    I appreciate and value your redundancy.


    Quote Originally Posted by PAcanis View Post
    If you had been running with a pitbull instead of a heeler, you wouldn't have had to go through with all that bother.

    Sorry, couldn't resist.
    lol. Yes. Well behaved, disciplined, submissive pitbulls that know their clearly defined place I am fine with....frankly like any dog with those qualities.

    For protection, I am fond of the Dogo. Dogo Argentino Mastiff | STRONGDOGZ

    Quote Originally Posted by PAcanis View Post
    I'm glad everything worked out. How close did the dog actually get. Why wouldn't pepper spray have been an option? I thought you said it stopped before it got to you, but then you said you didn't have enough time for pepper spray. I didn't understand that part. I've been trying to remember to carry my spray more regularly, regardless of the fact I have a gun and knife on me.
    It charged really hard...dead run...I saw it 10 yards (est) away from me. My first thought was recognition...."Holy F"...split second later was fear....pick up my girl..then realized in an instant dog closing too fast....my next move was Serious Anger/really pissed off...getting in front of my dog to block charging dog and stop my dogs movement forward towards the other dog....

    Next instant was channeling Serious Anger....SCREAMING command voice NO multiple times and pointing at dog because it was the Fastest thing I could do in the moment to project massive dominance and hopefully stop the animal.

    Trying to reach for spray (which I didnt have, just blades) did not enter my mind at that moment. The only thing that entered was shield my dog from injury and index point at charging dog while Screaming Command NO multiple times with full strength of my voice. Screaming happened to be a great channel for my anger - I notice in total hindsight.

    The point with my finger was to show dominance as well as to track the animal with my hand in case its red zone mentality overpowered my command voice. If so, I was ready to grab any part of it (accepting potential bite) to neutralize it as a threat with my hand then the mass of my body if necessary. The charging dog got the drop on me; accessing something at my waist would put me behind the curve. I had the upper hand (lol...pun intended) at that point. The tradeoff was my hand getting bit.

    I was having a great run, in a nice neighborgood, minding own biz, relaxing - which is a major component of my run - when the charge came out of nowhere.

    This is one of the most important parts I intend to get across. I had to go from jogging relaxation to Full Tilt Alert in maybe 1.5 seconds. My body and voice were the fastest tools I can access. My choice of the body block and my voice was semi-instinctual. In the past, my voice stops and body language stops most, but not all, dogs that come towards us. This is my first full charge experience. I intend to get hurt before and instead of my dog when rubber meets road. I am her pack leader.

    If I had more time and distance, pepper spray is appropriate (assuming no wind - which is a semi-large assumption). I also dont want to be using pepper spray near my own dog.

    Quote Originally Posted by tcox4freedom View Post
    A gun is ALWAYS a high risk choice.

    I think you handled it almost identical to what I would do. But, I'm usually trying to protect the other dog from my 84lb pitbull.

    I have let my dog take the bite instead of me once or twice because he is fairly well trained at protection; and can usually get control the the other dog real quick. (He can even disarm an assailent faster than you can blink!) Then, once the other dog is pinned down, I can get a "safe" hold on the offending dog and call my dog off.
    Thats really nice that you have this level of control on your pitty. What a wonderful dog and level of training you have with him. I wonder if you walk your pitty with a "Breed Ambassador" coat to help show how well behaved they can be and show the other side of the coin.

    Quote Originally Posted by dtox View Post
    Hmmm. I wonder if the owner had an invisible fence. One of those wires buried in the ground around the yard's perimeter that prevents the dog from leaving by sending a signal to a shock collar.
    no invisible fence. no collar on dog. Full owner screwup.

    Its always the owners fault. Always. Alpha responsibility always falls on the owner. Always is a big word.

    Quote Originally Posted by kelcarry View Post
    It is nice to read majority opinions that seem to put a firearm as the last choice. Too many of the posts on the other thread scare me a bit when the preeminent means to literally avoid any potential (not even imminent) threat is to pull out a gun and start shooting. This not only goes for dogs but also the threads that seem to deal with "incidents" at Walmarts et al.
    After this experience when WITH my dog, I much prefer my blade versus gun IF IT EVER GOT TO THAT NEED. I can use very little blade to back the dog off and avoid lethality way easier...which is absolutely what I want.

    Holding my dog back while attempting to index on a fast charging dog is just way too messy for a gun. Moreover, I will not risk shooting my dog in a fight fray. No freaking way. I will not risk my dogs hearing.

    Edged weapon in a worst case scenario offers WAY more control (cane is a bit much for running and Im a bit young for walking with one yet , but I agree its a very nice tool as is pepper spray at distance and enought time.)

    I accept that if this happened to be a mean dog of powerful, medium to large size (not just pitbull but others) and it FAILED to stop with my voice, the situation would get messy. I would have to access my blade after myself/Dog/both of use got bit. This is a potential reality of surprise and ambush.
    The United States Constitution 1791. All Rights Reserved.

    "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it."
    - Frederic Bastiat

  12. #12
    Distinguished Member Array tcox4freedom's Avatar
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    I think you handled it almost identical to what I would do. But, I'm usually trying to protect the other dog from my 84lb pitbull.

    I have let my dog take the bite instead of me once or twice because he is fairly well trained at protection; and can usually get control the the other dog real quick. (He can even disarm an assailent faster than you can blink!) Then, once the other dog is pinned down, I can get a "safe" hold on the offending dog and call my dog off.
    Thats really nice that you have this level of control on your pitty. What a wonderful dog and level of training you have with him. I wonder if you walk your pitty with a "Breed Ambassador" coat to help show how well behaved they can be and show the other side of the coin.
    I've had several pits during the past 20+ years of rescue that have been OUTSTANDING breed ambassadors.

    The one I had around 23 yrs ago helped some South Texas LEO departments and Border Patrol see a different side to them.

    It does my heart good to see rescued "pitbulls" doing narc, S&R and BP duty now.

    40 years around these dogs has taught me a lot; and shown MANY people just how well rounded and versatile they can be.

    -
    Last edited by tcox4freedom; March 20th, 2011 at 11:38 PM.

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    Member Array Bkrazy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TVJ View Post
    Trying to reach for spray (which I didnt have, just blades) did not enter my mind at that moment. The only thing that entered was shield my dog from injury and index point at charging dog while Screaming Command NO multiple times with full strength of my voice. Screaming happened to be a great channel for my anger - I notice in total hindsight.

    This is one of the most important parts I intend to get across. I had to go from jogging relaxation to Full Tilt Alert in maybe 1.5 seconds. My body and voice were the fastest tools I can access. My choice of the body block and my voice was semi-instinctual.

    In the past, my voice stops and body language stops most, but not all, dogs that come towards us. This is my first full charge experience.

    If I had more time and distance, pepper spray is appropriate (assuming no wind - which is a semi-large assumption). I also dont want to be using pepper spray near my own dog.
    Parts of the post have been deleted by me

    Your OP as well as this one are great posts. Thank you for sharing. I picked apart your second so that a few key things could be seen. Such as reaching for a defensive weapon (pepper spray which you didnt have and in your case a blade) didnt come to mind. The speed in which you had to react. How this experience had been different from your previous ones.

    We get so caught up sometimes in computer QBing scenarios that I think we forget the speed at which these instances occur. We should always have a plan, but be prepared to improvise. Thanks again.
    Please take my posts with a grain of salt. I am frequently sleep deprived and always just on this side of "Krazy".

    When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle. Edmund Burke

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    Ex Member Array JCBiggs's Avatar
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    i love dog threads...ive never once come across a dog (other than the rabid one a few years back) that needed anything more than a alpha male (or female :) ) to put it in its place...dogs are so simple, it doesnt take long to figure them out.

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    Member Array GettingOld2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCBiggs View Post
    i love dog threads...ive never once come across a dog (other than the rabid one a few years back) that needed anything more than a alpha male (or female :) ) to put it in its place...dogs are so simple, it doesnt take long to figure them out.
    Not that long ago, I agreed with you on dogs and disagreed on guns (I was an "anti"). A smack from reality reversed both of my previous positions.

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