When do you transfer to deadly force?
This is a discussion on When do you transfer to deadly force? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Understand the laws, and understand if you are willing to deal with the consequences. Develop all of the "other" tools you can and a gun ...
March 30th, 2011 12:50 AM
Understand the laws, and understand if you are willing to deal with the consequences. Develop all of the "other" tools you can and a gun is the last tool you should use, especially if there are other options or tools you can utilize. However, it's good to have when and if it's necessary to safe life and limb.
I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts. --- Will Rogers ---
Chief Justice John Roberts : "I don't see how you can read Heller and not take away from it the notion that the Second Amendment...was extremely important to the framers in their view of what liberty meant."
March 30th, 2011 03:35 AM
Ok I'm going to give my self a quick quiz...first I'll do it from memory and then look it up...this is Minnesota:
1)fear of death or great bodily harm
2)you were not the aggressor
3) no lesser force would suffice
4) no practical means of retreat
From local firearms instructor:
Deadly Force outside the Dwelling:
Generally requires 4 criteria to be met and is an affirmative defense. That is, you in effect say: Yes, I DID it but it was justified because ... You can think of the criteria as pillars or links in a chain holding you over a legal pit . If any of the elements is not present, you don't have the protection of the affirmative defense and the justification for lethal force is NOT present.
1) Reluctant participant. You can not be an aggressor in the altercation. You don't get to start or escalate an altercation and claim self defense. De-escalation, avoidance, and being the biggest chicken in the room are GOOD ideas
2) Reasonably in fear of Gross Bodily harm or Death. It must be an immediate threat. "I'm going to get my gun and kill you" is a threat but not immediate until the gun is present. Gross bodily harm means injuries so great that death is likely or possible; or that you’ll be disfigured or crippled permanently or for a significant period of time
3) Retreat if possible. You must retreat if you can safely do so. You don't have to retreat into more danger. i.e: turn your back on a gun / attacker, rush into traffic, leave your loved ones behind.
4) No lesser force would suffice. If you can stop a threat with something less than deadly force, you are required to. You are required to stop using force as soon as the threat stops. The condition of the victim and the attacker matter. You are not required to try other methods before using deadly force, you are simply expected to consider alternatives, and to only use deadly force when no other option is sufficient
I passed....got to know this stuff
March 30th, 2011 06:31 AM
IMHO, it is vital to carry some form of less lethal implement (spray, taser, impact tool) in addition to your firearm.
Originally Posted by smolck
When your only tool is a hammer....
Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
Blame it on Sixto - now that is a viable plan.
March 30th, 2011 08:53 AM
Hey smolck:The first reply from Glockman said it all. All the words in the world by everyone on this forum or from a book cannot tell you when that imminent threat to your life or great bodily injury is upon you. You do everything you can to avoid it in the first place and situational awareness is part of that and if it does happen, you scream loudly (witnesses) and try and get away from the confrontation--that is all you can do. After that it is your decision---can I be killed or injured severely by this person? No one can really teach you that.
March 30th, 2011 09:48 AM
Bark'n beat me to it. Execellent advice.
March 30th, 2011 11:13 AM
Good advice as always from all of you. I should mention, I was a black belt in Tae Kwon Do as a younger man, and can reasonably defend myself from an unarmed attacker. But if the dude is strung out, or larger than me then that is when I might think of using my weapon. Nowadays I ain't limber enough to do a jump spinning heel kick anymore.
I guess my thought is that the mere sight of a my weapon (or at least my hand on the gun so they can tell I have something) might be a great deterrent and convince them to move along when verbal reasoning has passed. Of course, I have always been told if you pull your gun, you better be ready to fire it. And in the case above, I am not sure that it warrants deadly force.
Seems like you almost have to let someone get the first punch or attack to justify force. It ought not be so. My opinion is, if the person is willing to do that to you, they deserve what they get (whatever that might be).
March 30th, 2011 11:15 AM
While I see your point, I am not all that inclined to load up everytime I go out with pepper spray, tasers, etc. I'd need the bat belt for that.
Originally Posted by MattInFla
March 30th, 2011 11:27 AM
You only need one of them... pepper spray fits nicely in a pocket.
Originally Posted by smolck
"I got a lot of problems with you people!" - Frank Costanza
March 30th, 2011 11:52 AM
I will concur with the recommendation to read, and understand, Massad Ayoob's book, "In The Gravest Extreme".
His classes go more in depth, but the book is the basis for his teaching. Take Mas' MAG 40 class if you get the opportunity, it's well worth it.
Last edited by BikerRN; March 30th, 2011 at 11:53 AM.
March 30th, 2011 12:33 PM
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^What he said^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Originally Posted by Bark'n
Don"t let stupid be your skill set....
And Shepards we shall be, for Thee, my Lord, for Thee,
Power hath descended forth from Thy hand, So that our feet may swiftly carry out thy command,
And we shall flow a river forth to Thee, And teeming with souls shall it ever be,
March 30th, 2011 06:25 PM
My dad always taught me the exact same thing. He always said if he had to draw his gun, someone was getting shot. Luckily he's never had to draw his weapon off duty, and never fired a single shot outside the range while on duty.
Originally Posted by smolck
That being said, I do believe that most incidents involving CWP holders drawing their weapons end without a shot being fired. It's pretty much up to you to decide when to draw your weapon based on the situation. You're the only one that can say if you believe your life is in danger.
March 31st, 2011 03:09 AM
fight.. or flight.. if you pull your weapon, it should be if you feel you're about to die, if you pull your weapon and shoot at a gas station next to a pump.. eek
i'd look for escape routes, most likely my car.. forget if the pump is still in, if the situation is intense enough, try to get out of it. Not a lot of people are going to hold you at gun point or with a knife in a well lit gas station with cameras.
high road on this one for sure.
March 31st, 2011 11:28 AM
Let me save you some time, a lot of trouble and possibly your life.
April 1st, 2011 12:53 PM
By all means--research and read your state statutes of firearm laws and deadly force!
I've been running an ongoing survey with LEOs I work with about CC in private vehicles with and without a CWFL, specifically whether a person with no permit can have a handgun in a snapped holster concealed under the seat. All but one of the officers have answered incorrectly (NO!). State statute says yes. The officers frequent try to apply some 2-3 step requirement that is not stated in the statutes. They are surprised to find out that what "my old sarge told me" is not what the law says and have never read the statutes. Education is good for everyone.
Retired USAF E-8. Official forum curmudgeon. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
Paranoia strikes deep, into your life it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid...
Buffalo Springfield - For What It's Worth
April 2nd, 2011 09:46 AM
Well, I've done some more reading (thanks for the ideas on what to read) and talked with some more LEO's and such. I feel better and more informed now. My current feeling is that while carrying a weapon I have the ability to kill. What a huge responsibility! And since I have taken that responsibility I must also take the stance that my gun is my absolute last line of defense.
Avoidance and awareness are the best defense. When alone I am confident in my ability to flee. And I am going to get some pepper spray (funny, never even thought about carrying pepper spray until I started carrying a gun). I'm learning through educational material that you can't take a mulligan once bullets have been fired, and the situation must be one of life or death.
It is kind of ironic that those of us who choose to carry legally and defend ourselves from bad guys are responsible for knowing the law, making split second decisions with others safety in mind first, and keeping the peace if at all possible. While the illegal element just goes and does what it wants.
There is a LOT more to carrying a gun than just knowing how to hit the 10 ring at the range!
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