When do you transfer to deadly force?

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Thread: When do you transfer to deadly force?

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    Understand the laws, and understand if you are willing to deal with the consequences. Develop all of the "other" tools you can and a gun is the last tool you should use, especially if there are other options or tools you can utilize. However, it's good to have when and if it's necessary to safe life and limb.
    I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts. --- Will Rogers ---
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  3. #17
    Member Array 12smile's Avatar
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    Ok I'm going to give my self a quick quiz...first I'll do it from memory and then look it up...this is Minnesota:

    From Memory:
    1)fear of death or great bodily harm
    2)you were not the aggressor
    3) no lesser force would suffice
    4) no practical means of retreat


    From local firearms instructor:

    Deadly Force outside the Dwelling:
    Generally requires 4 criteria to be met and is an affirmative defense. That is, you in effect say: Yes, I DID it but it was justified because ... You can think of the criteria as pillars or links in a chain holding you over a legal pit . If any of the elements is not present, you don't have the protection of the affirmative defense and the justification for lethal force is NOT present.

    1) Reluctant participant. You can not be an aggressor in the altercation. You don't get to start or escalate an altercation and claim self defense. De-escalation, avoidance, and being the biggest chicken in the room are GOOD ideas

    2) Reasonably in fear of Gross Bodily harm or Death. It must be an immediate threat. "I'm going to get my gun and kill you" is a threat but not immediate until the gun is present. Gross bodily harm means injuries so great that death is likely or possible; or that you’ll be disfigured or crippled permanently or for a significant period of time

    3) Retreat if possible. You must retreat if you can safely do so. You don't have to retreat into more danger. i.e: turn your back on a gun / attacker, rush into traffic, leave your loved ones behind.

    4) No lesser force would suffice. If you can stop a threat with something less than deadly force, you are required to. You are required to stop using force as soon as the threat stops. The condition of the victim and the attacker matter. You are not required to try other methods before using deadly force, you are simply expected to consider alternatives, and to only use deadly force when no other option is sufficient

    I passed....got to know this stuff

  4. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by smolck View Post
    Ok, I am brand new to CC. I have had my permit for exactly 30 hours or so. I have taken safety classes, spent a lot of time on the range, and have carried my pistol around my yard/house for 2 weeks getting ready to carry live. I have NOT read that much on when deadly force is warranted.

    For instance, say I am at a gas station pumping gas and somebody comes up to me looking for trouble (just say I am in the wrong place at the wrong time or maybe a panhandler turned violent). When do I have the right to pull my weapon? I mean, if the person is armed with blade or gun then I know I can shoot, but if they are unarmed but want to fight (and I don't) what are my options? (assuming I can't make it to my vehicle to flee?)

    Also, can anyone point me to some good books on the subject? Or websites?

    Thanks! Just want to be as responsible and prepared as possible.
    IMHO, it is vital to carry some form of less lethal implement (spray, taser, impact tool) in addition to your firearm.

    When your only tool is a hammer....
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  5. #19
    Distinguished Member Array kelcarry's Avatar
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    Hey smolck:The first reply from Glockman said it all. All the words in the world by everyone on this forum or from a book cannot tell you when that imminent threat to your life or great bodily injury is upon you. You do everything you can to avoid it in the first place and situational awareness is part of that and if it does happen, you scream loudly (witnesses) and try and get away from the confrontation--that is all you can do. After that it is your decision---can I be killed or injured severely by this person? No one can really teach you that.

  6. #20
    Senior Member Array BkCo1's Avatar
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    Bark'n beat me to it. Execellent advice.
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  7. #21
    VIP Member Array smolck's Avatar
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    Good advice as always from all of you. I should mention, I was a black belt in Tae Kwon Do as a younger man, and can reasonably defend myself from an unarmed attacker. But if the dude is strung out, or larger than me then that is when I might think of using my weapon. Nowadays I ain't limber enough to do a jump spinning heel kick anymore.

    I guess my thought is that the mere sight of a my weapon (or at least my hand on the gun so they can tell I have something) might be a great deterrent and convince them to move along when verbal reasoning has passed. Of course, I have always been told if you pull your gun, you better be ready to fire it. And in the case above, I am not sure that it warrants deadly force.

    Seems like you almost have to let someone get the first punch or attack to justify force. It ought not be so. My opinion is, if the person is willing to do that to you, they deserve what they get (whatever that might be).

  8. #22
    VIP Member Array smolck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattInFla View Post
    IMHO, it is vital to carry some form of less lethal implement (spray, taser, impact tool) in addition to your firearm.

    When your only tool is a hammer....
    While I see your point, I am not all that inclined to load up everytime I go out with pepper spray, tasers, etc. I'd need the bat belt for that.

  9. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by smolck View Post
    While I see your point, I am not all that inclined to load up everytime I go out with pepper spray, tasers, etc. I'd need the bat belt for that.
    You only need one of them... pepper spray fits nicely in a pocket.
    "I got a lot of problems with you people!" - Frank Costanza

  10. #24
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    I will concur with the recommendation to read, and understand, Massad Ayoob's book, "In The Gravest Extreme".

    His classes go more in depth, but the book is the basis for his teaching. Take Mas' MAG 40 class if you get the opportunity, it's well worth it.

    Biker
    Last edited by BikerRN; March 30th, 2011 at 11:53 AM. Reason: typo

  11. #25
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    Drill this into your head... When there is an immediate, and otherwise unavoidable threat of death, or crippling injury to yourself or another innocent person!

    Dissect and understand each and every word in that statement. Each word in that phrase has literal meaning to it. Learn it, know it, live it.

    The two words, "otherwise unavoidable" are just as important as the rest. Live by that phrase and employ lethal force only when that situation presents itself and you'll generally be okay in all 50 states.

    Just to help you out as to what constitutes an "Immediate and otherwise threat of death" is generally looked at in terms of the attacker possessing the following three components: Ability/Opportunity/Jeopardy

    Ability: The attacker must possess the ability to kill or cripple you. This generally means that he has a weapon capable of inflicting lethal or crippling injury. A gun, a knife (or other edged weapon), a club of sufficient size and weight capable of killing or maiming, etc.

    Opportunity: The attacker must at least have the opportunity to use the weapon to kill or cripple you. For example, a gun can be used against you at considerable distance, whereas a man threatening you with a two foot piece of lead pipe, but is standing across the parking lot 30 yards away does not have the opportunity to kill you with it (at least not until he closes the distance and gets a lot closer).

    Jeopardy: Often the word is interchanged with intent, means that the person must be actively threatening to harm you with deeds, actions, behavior or verbal threats which are believable. A man casually standing there with a holstered weapon on his person certainly has the opportunity and ability to kill or cripple anyone in the immediate area, but unless he is actually placing you in jeopardy by deeds, actions, behavior or verbal threats, you aren't warranted in responding with lethal force until said person actually places you in jeopardy by his actions and intent to hurt you.

    All three of those components, (ability, opportunity and jeopardy) must be present all at the same time to be construed as placing a person in what is referred to as "Immediate and otherwise unavoidable threat of death or crippling injury" in which you would be justified in using lethal force of your own to repel the attack.

    Each state has their own nuances and specifics you should be aware of. And there are a lot of "grey areas" which may make a difference. Each situation is going to be unique to you and your specific situation, but generally speaking if you stick to the tenants of the fact that you must be in "immediate and otherwise unavoidable threat of death or crippling injury," which also means the person possesses the "ability to kill or cripple, has the opportunity to kill or cripple, and has placed you in jeopardy by deeds or actions", you should be okay to employ lethal force in that instance.

    There's a world of knowledge you'll need to learn about to become well versed in the rules and laws surrounding the legal employment of lethal force. I'm only giving you the no B.S. bottom line in which all the lethal force laws revolve around.

    Obviously, the more you know, the more you learn, the more you study, the better your chances of both surviving a lethal encounter, and not getting jammed up in a legal nightmare, the better off you'll be.

    I hope this helps steer you in the right direction.

    I should point out, I am not an attorney and not giving any legal advice... I just an guy who has studied lethal force for a very long time and hope to hell I'm never in a situation in which I'm facing the proverbial "moment of truth."

    When it comes to lethal force and the legal ways to employ it, seek out and read anything written by a chap named Massad Ayoob. A great first book and must have in any gun owners library is In The Gravest Extreme by Massad Ayoob. While the book is a little dated, the material is timeless and is considered by most to be the bible for the legal use of lethal force.

    Good luck. Stay armed and stay safe, buddy!
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  12. #26
    Senior Member Array Spidey2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smolck View Post
    Good advice as always from all of you. I should mention, I was a black belt in Tae Kwon Do as a younger man, and can reasonably defend myself from an unarmed attacker. But if the dude is strung out, or larger than me then that is when I might think of using my weapon. Nowadays I ain't limber enough to do a jump spinning heel kick anymore.

    I guess my thought is that the mere sight of a my weapon (or at least my hand on the gun so they can tell I have something) might be a great deterrent and convince them to move along when verbal reasoning has passed. Of course, I have always been told if you pull your gun, you better be ready to fire it. And in the case above, I am not sure that it warrants deadly force.

    Seems like you almost have to let someone get the first punch or attack to justify force. It ought not be so. My opinion is, if the person is willing to do that to you, they deserve what they get (whatever that might be).
    My dad always taught me the exact same thing. He always said if he had to draw his gun, someone was getting shot. Luckily he's never had to draw his weapon off duty, and never fired a single shot outside the range while on duty.

    That being said, I do believe that most incidents involving CWP holders drawing their weapons end without a shot being fired. It's pretty much up to you to decide when to draw your weapon based on the situation. You're the only one that can say if you believe your life is in danger.

  13. #27
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    fight.. or flight.. if you pull your weapon, it should be if you feel you're about to die, if you pull your weapon and shoot at a gas station next to a pump.. eek

    i'd look for escape routes, most likely my car.. forget if the pump is still in, if the situation is intense enough, try to get out of it. Not a lot of people are going to hold you at gun point or with a knife in a well lit gas station with cameras.

    high road on this one for sure.

  14. #28
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Let me save you some time, a lot of trouble and possibly your life.

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  15. #29
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    By all means--research and read your state statutes of firearm laws and deadly force!

    I've been running an ongoing survey with LEOs I work with about CC in private vehicles with and without a CWFL, specifically whether a person with no permit can have a handgun in a snapped holster concealed under the seat. All but one of the officers have answered incorrectly (NO!). State statute says yes. The officers frequent try to apply some 2-3 step requirement that is not stated in the statutes. They are surprised to find out that what "my old sarge told me" is not what the law says and have never read the statutes. Education is good for everyone.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
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  16. #30
    VIP Member Array smolck's Avatar
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    Well, I've done some more reading (thanks for the ideas on what to read) and talked with some more LEO's and such. I feel better and more informed now. My current feeling is that while carrying a weapon I have the ability to kill. What a huge responsibility! And since I have taken that responsibility I must also take the stance that my gun is my absolute last line of defense.

    Avoidance and awareness are the best defense. When alone I am confident in my ability to flee. And I am going to get some pepper spray (funny, never even thought about carrying pepper spray until I started carrying a gun). I'm learning through educational material that you can't take a mulligan once bullets have been fired, and the situation must be one of life or death.

    It is kind of ironic that those of us who choose to carry legally and defend ourselves from bad guys are responsible for knowing the law, making split second decisions with others safety in mind first, and keeping the peace if at all possible. While the illegal element just goes and does what it wants.

    There is a LOT more to carrying a gun than just knowing how to hit the 10 ring at the range!

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