When do you transfer to deadly force?

This is a discussion on When do you transfer to deadly force? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by smolck It is kind of ironic that those of us who choose to carry legally and defend ourselves from bad guys are ...

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Thread: When do you transfer to deadly force?

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by smolck View Post

    It is kind of ironic that those of us who choose to carry legally and defend ourselves from bad guys are responsible for knowing the law, making split second decisions with others safety in mind first, and keeping the peace if at all possible. While the illegal element just goes and does what it wants.

    There is a LOT more to carrying a gun than just knowing how to hit the 10 ring at the range!

    And because of that, there's no guarantee you're going to be the one left standing in the end.


    The bad guys don't care where their bullets fly or who gets killed as long as it isn't them. Therefore, it is incumbent on you to become as masterful of your weapon as you possibly can. And to learn as much about tactics, movement, strategy, human behavior, gunfight dynamics, and the law as you can which will hopefully make you tactically superior to your adversary. And more proficient at shooting him as quickly and efficiently as possible.
    tcox4freedom and First Sgt like this.
    -Bark'n
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

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  3. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattInFla View Post
    IMHO, it is vital to carry some form of less lethal implement (spray, taser, impact tool) in addition to your firearm.

    When your only tool is a hammer....


    ^^^^^^^All the world is but a nail??^^^^^^


    Ahemm,,,, sorry, evidently some Shakespeare in me!!

    Bark'n said it well in post #`13


    Just to help you out as to what constitutes an "Immediate and otherwise threat of death" is generally looked at in terms of the attacker possessing the following three components: Ability/Opportunity/Jeopardy

    ^^^^The Deadly Force Triangle^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^








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  4. #33
    Member Array loneviking's Avatar
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    Pepper spray is not a good choice. Effective range is under thirty feet and you won't have time to draw and use your weapon if the spray fails before the BG IS ON YOU. Try some 'force on force' training and you will see what I mean.

    Also. Use of the spray is a battery (which is a felony in many jurisdictions) and also an assault in some jurisdictions. If someone is enough of a threat to use pepper spray on then they are enough of a threat to use deadly force.

  5. #34
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    I pretty much disagree with everything in the above post.
    Truckinfavis likes this.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  6. #35
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    Lethal force should only be used as a last resort when you feel your life in in imminent danger. If you were ever to use your firearm and kill someone you have fulfilled the criteria of a crime and the burden of proof is on you to prove that your life was in danger. You will have to convince either the Police, District Attorney, Attorney General, Grand Jury, or a jury that your life was in jeopardy.

  7. #36
    Ex Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by loneviking View Post
    Pepper spray is not a good choice. Effective range is under thirty feet and you won't have time to draw and use your weapon if the spray fails before the BG IS ON YOU. Try some 'force on force' training and you will see what I mean.

    Also. Use of the spray is a battery (which is a felony in many jurisdictions) and also an assault in some jurisdictions. If someone is enough of a threat to use pepper spray on then they are enough of a threat to use deadly force.
    Please re-read your post. PLEASE. This is so wrong.

  8. #37
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    Most of the subject matter i train on and teach is generated for Law Enforcement but the difference being L.E are not required to flee when in the performance of their duties.
    A citizen has the same rights in their own homes provided your state recognizes the castle doctrine as their rule of law.
    If you can leave or get away you have a responsibility to do so. If you pull it you better use it or be prepared to kill another person and you better be able to explain your actions. If you have a drunk panhandler who threatens to fight you and you have the opportunity to walk away it be wise to do so.
    If you can read this thank a teacher. If it is written in English thank a Marine.

  9. #38
    Ex Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patrol View Post
    Most of the subject matter i train on and teach is generated for Law Enforcement but the difference being L.E are not required to flee when in the performance of their duties.
    A citizen has the same rights in their own homes provided your state recognizes the castle doctrine as their rule of law.
    If you can leave or get away you have a responsibility to do so. If you pull it you better use it or be prepared to kill another person and you better be able to explain your actions. If you have a drunk panhandler who threatens to fight you and you have the opportunity to walk away it be wise to do so.
    Im not sure about Virginia, but in Michigan we have the stand your ground law. I have no duty to retreat. You are correct in your other two statements.

  10. #39
    Member Array loneviking's Avatar
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    For those who disagree with my post, Id like to hear what it is you disagree with. Please be specific.

  11. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    Drill this into your head... When there is an immediate, and otherwise unavoidable threat of death, or crippling injury to yourself or another innocent person!

    Dissect and understand each and every word in that statement. Each word in that phrase has literal meaning to it. Learn it, know it, live it.

    The two words, "otherwise unavoidable" are just as important as the rest. Live by that phrase and employ lethal force only when that situation presents itself and you'll generally be okay in all 50 states.

    Just to help you out as to what constitutes an "Immediate and otherwise threat of death" is generally looked at in terms of the attacker possessing the following three components: Ability/Opportunity/Jeopardy

    Ability: The attacker must possess the ability to kill or cripple you. This generally means that he has a weapon capable of inflicting lethal or crippling injury. A gun, a knife (or other edged weapon), a club of sufficient size and weight capable of killing or maiming, etc.

    Opportunity: The attacker must at least have the opportunity to use the weapon to kill or cripple you. For example, a gun can be used against you at considerable distance, whereas a man threatening you with a two foot piece of lead pipe, but is standing across the parking lot 30 yards away does not have the opportunity to kill you with it (at least not until he closes the distance and gets a lot closer).

    Jeopardy: Often the word is interchanged with intent, means that the person must be actively threatening to harm you with deeds, actions, behavior or verbal threats which are believable. A man casually standing there with a holstered weapon on his person certainly has the opportunity and ability to kill or cripple anyone in the immediate area, but unless he is actually placing you in jeopardy by deeds, actions, behavior or verbal threats, you aren't warranted in responding with lethal force until said person actually places you in jeopardy by his actions and intent to hurt you.

    All three of those components, (ability, opportunity and jeopardy) must be present all at the same time to be construed as placing a person in what is referred to as "Immediate and otherwise unavoidable threat of death or crippling injury" in which you would be justified in using lethal force of your own to repel the attack.

    Each state has their own nuances and specifics you should be aware of. And there are a lot of "grey areas" which may make a difference. Each situation is going to be unique to you and your specific situation, but generally speaking if you stick to the tenants of the fact that you must be in "immediate and otherwise unavoidable threat of death or crippling injury," which also means the person possesses the "ability to kill or cripple, has the opportunity to kill or cripple, and has placed you in jeopardy by deeds or actions", you should be okay to employ lethal force in that instance.

    There's a world of knowledge you'll need to learn about to become well versed in the rules and laws surrounding the legal employment of lethal force. I'm only giving you the no B.S. bottom line in which all the lethal force laws revolve around.

    Obviously, the more you know, the more you learn, the more you study, the better your chances of both surviving a lethal encounter, and not getting jammed up in a legal nightmare, the better off you'll be.

    I hope this helps steer you in the right direction.

    I should point out, I am not an attorney and not giving any legal advice... I just an guy who has studied lethal force for a very long time and hope to hell I'm never in a situation in which I'm facing the proverbial "moment of truth."

    When it comes to lethal force and the legal ways to employ it, seek out and read anything written by a chap named Massad Ayoob. A great first book and must have in any gun owners library is In The Gravest Extreme by Massad Ayoob. While the book is a little dated, the material is timeless and is considered by most to be the bible for the legal use of lethal force.

    Good luck. Stay armed and stay safe, buddy!
    Kudos to you Bark'n! This is the best answer I've seen yet! Thanks for posting. I'm going to print it out and read often.

  12. #41
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Specifics, as you requested.

    Quote Originally Posted by loneviking
    Pepper spray is not a good choice. Effective range is under thirty feet and you won't have time to draw and use your weapon if the spray fails before the BG IS ON YOU. Try some 'force on force' training and you will see what I mean.
    Pepper spray is effective on most poeple. I deploy pepper spray with my off hand so it does not effect my draw. Your distances are in error. I can draw from concealment, from as little as nine feet and shoot you at least once before you can touch me, and that is without movement or combatives, which I would probably employ. I have done FoF numerous times, both in training and in the real world.

    Quote Originally Posted by loneviking
    Also. Use of the spray is a battery (which is a felony in many jurisdictions) and also an assault in some jurisdictions. If someone is enough of a threat to use pepper spray on then they are enough of a threat to use deadly force.
    Most states distinguish between misdemeanor and felony assault/battery. There is a range of threats that fall below lethal, that allow a response below the lethal level.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  13. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by loneviking View Post
    Pepper spray is not a good choice. Effective range is under thirty feet and you won't have time to draw and use your weapon if the spray fails before the BG IS ON YOU. Try some 'force on force' training and you will see what I mean.

    Also. Use of the spray is a battery (which is a felony in many jurisdictions) and also an assault in some jurisdictions. If someone is enough of a threat to use pepper spray on then they are enough of a threat to use deadly force.
    Just a couple of things to point out.

    If someone is enough of a threat to use pepper spray on then they are enough of a threat to use deadly force.
    Attempting to use pepper spray against a lethal threat when deadly force is warranted is a good way to end up dead or dying. Pepper spray is a less lethal deterrent which is employed at a much lower level on the force continuum then when deadly force is warranted. It is used as a deterrent to keep a situation from escalating to a higher level. If you actually believe your statement, you are asking for an express pass to the penitentiary. Pepper spray is what you use against unarmed assailants in lieu of using deadly force against an unarmed assailant. If you don't understand the use of force continuum, you have no business carrying a gun.

    Use of the spray is a battery (which is a felony in many jurisdictions) and also an assault in some jurisdictions.
    There are relatively very few states and jurisdictions where pepper spray is not allowed for use by citizens as a means of defense against an attacker. Use of pepper spray when legal criteria for using such a tool is neither assault, nor battery and is not a felony.

    It only becomes such when the person employing it is ignorant of the circumstances when pepper spray is authorized to use, or when used to subdue or disable a person to facilitate committing a crime, or when carrying and using pepper spray is expressly prohibited in that jurisdiction for civilians to use. It is incumbent for anyone to know the laws regarding any tool they choose to carry and use in their jurisdiction.

    Pepper spray is not a good choice. I would say that pepper spray is not a good choice when facing a deadly threat, unless that is the only option you have. If you have a deadly weapon, and are facing a deadly threat, then pepper spray is obviously not the appropriate tool to employ in that situation. However, pepper spray is an excellent choice to use when facing a threat from a person who is unarmed or aggressive animals of the 4 legged type.

    Effective range is under thirty feet and you won't have time to draw and use your weapon if the spray fails before the BG IS ON YOU. Certainly pepper spray had an effective range for it's use. If you don't know the parameters of it's effective use, it will likely prove to be ineffective.

    Also, while it may not have the ideal desired effect you expect, it more often than not has some effect which will disrupt the aggressors initial attack which buys you time to go to other options. If it gets into the aggressors eyes, it will almost certainly cause disruption of their ability to see clearly by producing excessive blinking, excessive tear production.

    Whether or not the aggressor feels little pain effect from the burning sensation due to intoxication or sheer determination to fight through the pain no one will know until it's use. However, having absolutely no effect what so ever is an extremely rare occurrence to where I've never heard of it. It almost always has at least some effect which can and should buy you some time to go to other options.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  14. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by loneviking View Post
    For those who disagree with my post, Id like to hear what it is you disagree with. Please be specific.
    I think the two post above pretty well sum it up...

  15. #44
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    Guantes, I'd have to see your draw to believe it. At 21 ft, FonF training has consistently proven you have 1.5 seconds to react. I have yet to see a concealment draw faster than 1.3 seconds. At 9 ft, you have about 0.8 seconds to react and you're going to be able to draw not just a gun but pepper spray?! Not a chance!

    Not only does the math not work but you want the non gun hand free to grapple/punch and keep the BG off you until you can fire your weapon.

    And yes, I'm aware of various levels of battery but even misdemeanor battery is going to get you cuffed and booked.

    As for pepper spray being effective, it is IF the BG holds still and lets you spray him instead of rushing you with his head down, bobbing and weaving from side to side while you're moving trying to get out of the way; and if there's no rain to dilute the spray; and there is no wind to ruin the stream of spray. Remember, stuff on the street goes down in a blink of an eye. A BG isn't going to be telegraphing an attack from a block away. It will be somebody at bad breath distance who whips out a knife and then the attack is on.

  16. #45
    Member Array loneviking's Avatar
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    Pepper spray is what you use against unarmed assailants? Hmmm, you mean like the guys that drug Reginald Denny from his car and beat him nearly to death at the start of the LA riots? Or the five unarmed guys that jumped one of my co-workers sons and beat him unconcious, breaking ribs and shattering one ankle from a good stomping with steel toed boots.


    Unarmed assailants can hurt you and kill you. Is there ever a time when pepper spray might work and de-escalate an attack? Maybe, but do you want to bet your life on it?

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