When do you transfer to deadly force?

This is a discussion on When do you transfer to deadly force? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; While this banter of “hypothetical and historical” situations is somewhat amusing, it does not address the questions of when is “Lethal Force” justified! As a ...

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Thread: When do you transfer to deadly force?

  1. #46
    Distinguished Member Array onacoma's Avatar
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    Learn the laws of concealed carry and self-defense

    While this banter of “hypothetical and historical” situations is somewhat amusing, it does not address the questions of when is “Lethal Force” justified! As a new CCW permitee, with a stepson who is a sheriff in my state, and me managing a police station remodel for an LE dept in Mexifornia, I have ask the same question! And the proverbial “an opinion is like a anus, everybody has one!” holds true. One thing that has helped me with working this out is reading Massad F. Ayoob’s books, “In the Gravest Extreme” and “The Gun Digest Book of Concealed Carry”. Another that I’m currently reading is “Self-Defense Laws of All 50 States” by Attorney Mitch Vilos & Evan Vilos. This book takes the state laws/codes and breaks them down. In my search for enlightenment, I’m also taking a MAG-40 hour class (Massad Ayoob Group). EXPENSIVE BUT IF IT SAVES ME FROM GOING TO JAIL IT IS WORTH EVERY PENNY! I would recommend taking as many classes or getting as much information as possible.

    Here is a real life example, Two (2) would be home invaders storm into a garage, the home owner draws and shoot the first, when the second flees the home the homeowner chases him down and shoots him. The first was Justifiable! The second shooting, the homeowner is now on trial for murder!

    Link to MAG Classes: Massad Ayoob Group

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  3. #47
    Member Array jfnixon's Avatar
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    @loneviking, the key is 'guys'--multiple attackers, even unarmed, constitute disparity of force, or ability. If the other aspects exist (opportunity and jeopardy), then use of deadly force may be justified. As always, YMMV.

  4. #48
    Distinguished Member Array kelcarry's Avatar
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    In SC deadly force is sanctioned when you "presume" imminent death or great bodily injury. The "presume" is likely to be what a prosecutor or judge or jury decide it is, so your "presume" had better be a really good "presume", considering the fact that you are about to kill someone in defense of your life. To be a really good "presume" it had better have been a very last resort (you did everything you could including retreat to get away from confrontation) and you should be yelling all the time (those in earshot are witnesses, which certainly can help in your definition of "presume"). Unfortunately, there are no rules for you to follow---you stay way from problems (situational awareness) and get away from problems (retreat)--that is about all you can do. If you use your head and common sense, chances are this will all be a forum exercise and nothing else. I bring 69 years, mostly in NYC, to the table and have never ever felt a need to even have a firearm. Welcome to CC and be wise and careful and follow your state's rules and regs

  5. #49
    Member Array Sleipnir's Avatar
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    I tend to follow what I've learned in my criminal justice classes adapted to suit my needs and restrictions as a civilian: the use of force continuum.


    source: The (Original) Use of Force Model



    If I believe you have the means, the motive, and the opportunity to kill or cause serious harm to me or mine is when I deploy the great equalizer to level the playing field. After that point the OODA loop comes into play wherein the factors of the situation determine if I shoot or not depending on the following actions of the agressor(s).

  6. #50
    Distinguished Member Array kelcarry's Avatar
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    Hey Sleipnir: Interesting chart for classroom and discussion. Not exactly what you need when you are confronted, but still a very good overall "what if" to study. Even with study and pre-thought with the chart, it is still very difficult to gauge a pure "presumption" of imminent danger when things are so dynamic during some kind of confrontation; the responsibility is still on you as the CC, and you have got to do your do diligence if you are going to walk around with the ability to kill someone in defense.

  7. #51
    VIP Member Array TedBeau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    Drill this into your head... When there is an immediate, and otherwise unavoidable threat of death, or crippling injury to yourself or another innocent person!

    Dissect and understand each and every word in that statement. Each word in that phrase has literal meaning to it. Learn it, know it, live it.

    The two words, "otherwise unavoidable" are just as important as the rest. Live by that phrase and employ lethal force only when that situation presents itself and you'll generally be okay in all 50 states.

    Just to help you out as to what constitutes an "Immediate and otherwise threat of death" is generally looked at in terms of the attacker possessing the following three components: Ability/Opportunity/Jeopardy

    Ability: The attacker must possess the ability to kill or cripple you. This generally means that he has a weapon capable of inflicting lethal or crippling injury. A gun, a knife (or other edged weapon), a club of sufficient size and weight capable of killing or maiming, etc.

    Opportunity: The attacker must at least have the opportunity to use the weapon to kill or cripple you. For example, a gun can be used against you at considerable distance, whereas a man threatening you with a two foot piece of lead pipe, but is standing across the parking lot 30 yards away does not have the opportunity to kill you with it (at least not until he closes the distance and gets a lot closer).

    Jeopardy: Often the word is interchanged with intent, means that the person must be actively threatening to harm you with deeds, actions, behavior or verbal threats which are believable. A man casually standing there with a holstered weapon on his person certainly has the opportunity and ability to kill or cripple anyone in the immediate area, but unless he is actually placing you in jeopardy by deeds, actions, behavior or verbal threats, you aren't warranted in responding with lethal force until said person actually places you in jeopardy by his actions and intent to hurt you.

    All three of those components, (ability, opportunity and jeopardy) must be present all at the same time to be construed as placing a person in what is referred to as "Immediate and otherwise unavoidable threat of death or crippling injury" in which you would be justified in using lethal force of your own to repel the attack.

    Each state has their own nuances and specifics you should be aware of. And there are a lot of "grey areas" which may make a difference. Each situation is going to be unique to you and your specific situation, but generally speaking if you stick to the tenants of the fact that you must be in "immediate and otherwise unavoidable threat of death or crippling injury," which also means the person possesses the "ability to kill or cripple, has the opportunity to kill or cripple, and has placed you in jeopardy by deeds or actions", you should be okay to employ lethal force in that instance.

    There's a world of knowledge you'll need to learn about to become well versed in the rules and laws surrounding the legal employment of lethal force. I'm only giving you the no B.S. bottom line in which all the lethal force laws revolve around.

    Obviously, the more you know, the more you learn, the more you study, the better your chances of both surviving a lethal encounter, and not getting jammed up in a legal nightmare, the better off you'll be.

    I hope this helps steer you in the right direction.

    I should point out, I am not an attorney and not giving any legal advice... I just an guy who has studied lethal force for a very long time and hope to hell I'm never in a situation in which I'm facing the proverbial "moment of truth."

    When it comes to lethal force and the legal ways to employ it, seek out and read anything written by a chap named Massad Ayoob. A great first book and must have in any gun owners library is In The Gravest Extreme by Massad Ayoob. While the book is a little dated, the material is timeless and is considered by most to be the bible for the legal use of lethal force.

    Good luck. Stay armed and stay safe, buddy!
    About the best direct and concise post on this I have ever seen!

  8. #52
    Distinguished Member Array INccwchris's Avatar
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    Viking, let me put it to you this way. Police and Security Officers are trained in use of force continuum. Not sure what you were trained in but I have the feeling much of your post comes from the internet or other peoples experiences and not your own. There are many situations in which OC spray is more effective than you believe and a better alternative to lethal force. OC spray is considered a less than lethal weapon, which means that used properly, in conjunction with local laws it is applicable in a self defense situation. Say for example your wife is walking out to get the mail and a man approaches her. He walks up to her and demands money but does not show a weapon and his hands are visible. She says no and he reaches for the latch to open the gate and come in. Now she deploys her firearm and shoots him. Ok, she felt her life was in danger, but a reasonable person would not say that he threatened her verbally or with his body language, and that he just was coming in to make more threats. No weapon was seen. OC spray on the other hand has a more than reasonable chance of stopping this man in his tracks and allowing your wife to run inside the house to call 911 and retrieve a firearm in case he tries to break in. I have deployed OC spray five times on the job in this year. twice on dogs, and three times on people. Only because of my employment, not because I go looking for fights. Each time, it was effective enough to stop the attack and allow me to gain control and hold the subject for police to arrive so we could get him cuffed and stuffed. I do not know where you get your information, but I can assure you that you are wrong.
    "The value you put on the lost will be determined by the sacrifice you are willing to make to seek them until they are found."

  9. #53
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Loneviking,

    Sorry for the late response.

    A few points might help clarify things.

    Quote Originally Posted by loneviking
    Guantes, I'd have to see your draw to believe it. At 21 ft, FonF training has consistently proven you have 1.5 seconds to react. I have yet to see a concealment draw faster than 1.3 seconds. At 9 ft, you have about 0.8 seconds to react and you're going to be able to draw not just a gun but pepper spray?! Not a chance!
    First, I think your time of 0.8 seconds is off. IIRC, the average male stride is over 6 feet and the average male covers 22 feet per second at full run. Time to initiate movement and two strides to get up to full stride length and speed, I would make it closer to 1.0 seconds for the first 9 feet and 1/2 second for the remaining 12 feet in a 21 ft distance.

    My first shot times from concealment for that distance (9') are 0.85 to 0.90. Closer to 0.90 as age is taking its toll. Whether you believe that or not, is up to you. That is for a gun draw, pepper spray would have already been drawn when trouble appeared to be coming.

    Quote Originally Posted by loneviking
    Not only does the math not work but you want the non gun hand free to grapple/punch and keep the BG off you until you can fire your weapon.
    With the pepper spray predrawn, the off hand can still be used to block or punch, in addition to spraying. There is also movement to avoid incoming blows, etc.

    Believe as you wish.
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  10. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by loneviking View Post
    Also. Use of the spray is a battery (which is a felony in many jurisdictions) and also an assault in some jurisdictions. If someone is enough of a threat to use pepper spray on then they are enough of a threat to use deadly force.
    Absolutely incorrect.

    The use of pepper spray is in no way equivalent to the use of a firearm.

    Scenario:

    You're walking through a parking lot at night, headed to your vehicle. An individual approaches you and tells you he is going to beat your tail. He clenches his fists and advances, ignoring your warnings to stay back.

    I'd spray him at this point. And I'd be justified and within the law in my jurisdiction.

    What I certainly would not do is shoot him at this point, notwithstanding your assertion.

    Matt
    Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
    Blame it on Sixto - now that is a viable plan.

  11. #55
    Member Array loneviking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattInFla View Post
    Absolutely incorrect.

    The use of pepper spray is in no way equivalent to the use of a firearm.

    Scenario:

    You're walking through a parking lot at night, headed to your vehicle. An individual approaches you and tells you he is going to beat your tail. He clenches his fists and advances, ignoring your warnings to stay back.

    I'd spray him at this point. And I'd be justified and within the law in my jurisdiction.

    What I certainly would not do is shoot him at this point, notwithstanding your assertion.

    Matt
    Equivalent or not, if unjustified it would still be a battery. Too many think that pepper spray can be used without any legal consequences and yet, just like a gun, if the use is unjustified then you are going to jail.

    And as for your scenario, I just wish you luck and hope the spray works.

  12. #56
    Distinguished Member Array INccwchris's Avatar
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    Woah, I just had an epiphany. I think in some aspects we may have read what loneviking said wrong. The part about it being battery he was just saying hey, be careful with pepper spray too, its not just spray and forget, follow up with the police too. Alot of people think they just spray someone and leave, I know people who think that way. On the other hand, just because pepper spray is justified does not mean a weapon will be justified also
    "The value you put on the lost will be determined by the sacrifice you are willing to make to seek them until they are found."

  13. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by loneviking View Post
    Equivalent or not, if unjustified it would still be a battery. Too many think that pepper spray can be used without any legal consequences and yet, just like a gun, if the use is unjustified then you are going to jail.

    And as for your scenario, I just wish you luck and hope the spray works.
    Actually, it was a real situation for me, and it worked just fine.

    Drawing a firearm in that situation would have been absolutely unwarranted. I'd far rather, if I am wrong, risk being charged with assault for displaying pepper spray than for aggravated assault with a firearm for displaying a firearm. One of those, in Florida, carries a mandatory three year prison sentence. Care to guess which one?

    Matt
    Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
    Blame it on Sixto - now that is a viable plan.

  14. #58
    Senior Member Array gwhall57's Avatar
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    When you feel that you, or another person, is in danger of death or severe bodily harm, use deadly force to stop the threat.
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  15. #59
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    I agree about the pepper spray. If you are about to get robbed at night I don't think any cop or judge would fault you for using pepper spray, but you will probably get into big trouble for shooting the guy. The difference here is that the guy can wash his eyes out and recover from the pepper spray, but he can't come back from the dead.

    Laws are not always clear, they are open to interpretation, you don't know what the precendents may be, and juries can be easily swayed with sob stories, especially if they sympathize with the BG more than they sympathize with you.

    Besides, there is human element to this, not just "what can I get away with." I think deadly force is only reasonable when you are backed into a corner and are fighting for your life. This goes for guns, knives or even your bare hands. Would you choke someone to death because they wanted to rob you? If you're in a position to chocke them you've overpowered them, and you don't need to kill them to protect yourself. Why would you want to anyway? Same thing applies to guns.

    Don't get me wrong, I don't sympathize with criminals and I hope they all get put in jail, but I'm not a blood-thirsty ogre either.

    If you use deadly force while you have other choices you are asking for trouble, regardless of the weapon you use and regardless of what you think the law says.

  16. #60
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    leave the situation if you cany any possible way run or get into your car if you can not escape and your life is endanger i would pull my weapon! only if you know you have no other choice!

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