When do you transfer to deadly force? - Page 5

When do you transfer to deadly force?

This is a discussion on When do you transfer to deadly force? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by m287452 I agree about the pepper spray. If you are about to get robbed at night I don't think any cop or ...

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Thread: When do you transfer to deadly force?

  1. #61
    VIP Member Array smolck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by m287452 View Post
    I agree about the pepper spray. If you are about to get robbed at night I don't think any cop or judge would fault you for using pepper spray, but you will probably get into big trouble for shooting the guy. The difference here is that the guy can wash his eyes out and recover from the pepper spray, but he can't come back from the dead.

    Laws are not always clear, they are open to interpretation, you don't know what the precendents may be, and juries can be easily swayed with sob stories, especially if they sympathize with the BG more than they sympathize with you.

    Besides, there is human element to this, not just "what can I get away with." I think deadly force is only reasonable when you are backed into a corner and are fighting for your life. This goes for guns, knives or even your bare hands. Would you choke someone to death because they wanted to rob you? If you're in a position to chocke them you've overpowered them, and you don't need to kill them to protect yourself. Why would you want to anyway? Same thing applies to guns.

    Don't get me wrong, I don't sympathize with criminals and I hope they all get put in jail, but I'm not a blood-thirsty ogre either.

    If you use deadly force while you have other choices you are asking for trouble, regardless of the weapon you use and regardless of what you think the law says.
    Gotta say, if the robber has a gun, yes, I choke the life out of him if I get the chance. If I have my gun, he better not look away or he'll have a 9mm in his face going BANG! Law or no law. You pull your gun, I pull mine (if I can).


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    Americans understood the right of self-preservation as permitting a citizen to repel force by force
    when the intervention of society... may be too late to prevent an injury.
    -Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by smolck View Post
    Gotta say, if the robber has a gun, yes, I choke the life out of him if I get the chance.
    Well, I think it's understood that you are justified in using any means necessary to defend yourself if someone is pointing a gun at you. But how are you going to manage choking someone if they have a gun? Either you have already disarmed them and there is no need to choke them to death, or if you haven't disarmed them I don't think they will let you choke them to death.

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    VIP Member Array smolck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by m287452 View Post
    Well, I think it's understood that you are justified in using any means necessary to defend yourself if someone is pointing a gun at you. But how are you going to manage choking someone if they have a gun? Either you have already disarmed them and there is no need to choke them to death, or if you haven't disarmed them I don't think they will let you choke them to death.
    Dunno. That's why I say "if I have the chance". Heck, in my local newspaper some years back, in the crime section there was a headline I sent to Jay Leno. It said "man robbed of gun at knife point". Strange world.

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    Here, go read this and then, like I said....I hope it works for you.

    When Pepper Spray Doesn't Work!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by loneviking View Post
    Here, go read this and then, like I said....I hope it works for you.

    When Pepper Spray Doesn't Work!!
    Anecdotal examples of failures doesn't really prove much of anything. If you do not know the limits of your tools, and how to transition to another tool or technique then you shouldn't be carrying that tool.

    As a former instructor of the NLETC, OC Counter Assault Course, I am well aware of it's limitations, as well as effects and benefits. I also know what to do if it fails to perform as intended or expected. I always stress to anyone who carries OC to get appropriate training for it. Failure to do so can have unintended consequences. I have no control over what other people do or if they fail to respond effectively when what they use fails to perform.

    Again, you can show anecdotal examples of OC failures to perform all day long. It does not mean it's a worthless or inappropriate tool. I can tell you, it works way more often than it doesn't. And at least to a desirable effect, even if it's not an optimal effect.
    TVJ likes this.
    -Bark'n
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  7. #67
    VIP Member Array smolck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    It does not mean it's a worthless or inappropriate tool. I can tell you, it works way more often than it doesn't. And at least to a desirable effect, even if it's not an optimal effect.
    I have seen plenty of COPS episodes where pepper spray is used with tremendous effect. I agree 100%

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    Maybe I missed something, but presenting deadly force is a very important step in saving your own a** correct? In a situation it could be safe to say that 9 times out of 10 just drawing your gun will be enough to stop a pending attack. Why do i have to wait until he is physically attacking me before I can even legally draw on him, let alone shoot him?

    If I'm having a cigarette outside a store or whatever and someone walks up to me asking me for money and blah blah and won't go away when i tell him to. The second i feel like he needs to go away BEFORE he decides to get aggressive I am going to draw on him. It's stupid that I have to wait until he's already a threat to my life to pull out my firearm, and it may already be to late.

    I feel that presenting lethal force is just as bad as using lethal force even though it shouldn't . Can anyone shed some light on that subject?

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    Quote Originally Posted by KimberUltra View Post
    Maybe I missed something, but presenting deadly force is a very important step in saving your own a** correct? In a situation it could be safe to say that 9 times out of 10 just drawing your gun will be enough to stop a pending attack. Why do i have to wait until he is physically attacking me before I can even legally draw on him, let alone shoot him?

    If I'm having a cigarette outside a store or whatever and someone walks up to me asking me for money and blah blah and won't go away when i tell him to. The second i feel like he needs to go away BEFORE he decides to get aggressive I am going to draw on him. It's stupid that I have to wait until he's already a threat to my life to pull out my firearm, and it may already be to late.

    I feel that presenting lethal force is just as bad as using lethal force even though it shouldn't . Can anyone shed some light on that subject?
    Let me know how much it costs to defend yourself against the pending aggravated assault or ADW charge you'll likely be facing.

    You may think the laws surrounding use of lethal force are stupid... But step outside them and you'll likely come to realize you should have paid more attention as to when it's appropriate to pull your gun and when it isn't.
    -Bark'n
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  10. #70
    Senior Member Array HK Dan's Avatar
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    AOJ is a great standard, and so is IDOL--Immediate Defense Of Life. If he doesn't have the ability, opportunity, and mainfest intent to cause you grave bodily harm or death, DO NOT go to deadly force. In most states you can use "Reasonable Force" to prevent the unlawful use of force against you or a third person, and that can include deadly force, but not if AOL hasn't been satisfied. If it goes to IDOL, you're almost always covered.
    "What does Marcellus Wallace LOOK like?"

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by KimberUltra View Post
    Maybe I missed something, but presenting deadly force is a very important step in saving your own a** correct? In a situation it could be safe to say that 9 times out of 10 just drawing your gun will be enough to stop a pending attack. Why do i have to wait until he is physically attacking me before I can even legally draw on him, let alone shoot him?

    If I'm having a cigarette outside a store or whatever and someone walks up to me asking me for money and blah blah and won't go away when i tell him to. The second i feel like he needs to go away BEFORE he decides to get aggressive I am going to draw on him. It's stupid that I have to wait until he's already a threat to my life to pull out my firearm, and it may already be to late.

    I feel that presenting lethal force is just as bad as using lethal force even though it shouldn't . Can anyone shed some light on that subject?

    I wonder what your reasoning is to just stand there and avoid creating tactical space between you and someone who potentially concerns your safety.

    So you draw your gun, he sees that and grabs it and fights you for it. Or he calls the cops on you, he was just asking for money and has no weapons (after the cops pat him down). Or someone else calls.

    Tactical space creates distance, gives you time, lessens weapon retention issues, increases safety, shows clearer perp intent if he closes/tracks you. It causes him to work harder to get you - making his intentions much more obvious to you and the police/DA/Grand Jury. Your actions/beliefs that he threatens you become much more "reasonable" as perp's become "unreasonable".

    Shout Back Off: Draws attention, shows you as defensive to witnesses, gives clear instruction to perp; does he stop or continue?

    Both of the above clarify perp intent and show his escalation or moderation. If he moderates, where is the need for gun? Maybe hes just a persistent non-violent panhandler who's hungry/jonesing with little social graces/personal responsibility. Hardly a threat to draw down just then. How do you know he intends to attack? How can you "prove" you know or are at least "reasonable" in assuming worse? If you're pissed enough at his panhandling tactics and that he ruined your cig break, just call the cops.

    So you backed away/created space, panhandler stopped. You're safe. Simple outcome.

    If he escalates, you have more legal backing to POTENTIALLY draw down - depending on the law in CT. You need to know the law in CT front to back. What does the law in CT state? Is your only option for sidearm presentation the immediate need for lethal force - as in - if you pull it, you effectively must shoot now. I describe Texas law below; If you dont have this in CT, I strongly suggest getting OC spray/taser and/or what other less than lethal tools CT allows, if any. Train FoF with those less lethal tools and to tactically transition quickly between less lethal and your sidearm.

    Texas allows a CCH the ability to index a sidearm defensively to give the appearance that the CCH will use it only if the aggressor continues/escalates force against a good guy. Texas views sidearm presentation as a use of force response versus a use of lethal force response in this specific defensive circumstance. Self defense use of (non-lethal) force law applies versus lethal use of force law.

    Sec. 9.04. THREATS AS JUSTIFIABLE FORCE. The threat of force is justified when the use of force is justified by this chapter. For purposes of this section, a threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by the production of a weapon or otherwise, as long as the actor's purpose is limited to creating an apprehension that he will use deadly force if necessary, does not constitute the use of deadly force.

    Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, Sec. 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974. Amended by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, Sec. 1.01, eff. Sept. 1, 1994.
    A perp closing distance uses his (non-lethal) force of motion to threaten my safety by closing/maintaining distance. Moreover, he ignores a command to Back Off. Texas allows CCH to stand his ground. "Retreating" or creating tactical space shows CCH even went extra distance (pun intended) to avoid conflict. Right or wrong, its very reasonable for me to believe he intends/wants to harm me by ignoring my command(s) and closing/maintaining distance. What law abiding citizen does this? None act like this. So legally I match force to Perp's force. Tactically, I leapfrog perp's force with much greater force.

    Does the Perp ride the razors edge: He is a perp that keeps closing distance and ignoring your "Back off" command because he really does intend to get the drop/hurt/rob you but does it by socially engineering you....persistently ignoring your command and continually asking you non-threatening questions (what time is it...come-on man...do you have a quarter...I just need a five bucks to get some food/gas blah blah blah...) all while continuing to intentionally close distance on you.

    He's done nothing "overtly threatening", but its tactically ingenious to get close to you to get the drop.

    Do you have other options other than full draw/index?

    After creating tactical space and yelling "Back Off", what about hand on gun/preparing a shooting stance where gun remains in holster as perp continues persistently tracking, sizing, closing/maintaining distance? What signal does that send to him? How does the law view just grabbing your sidearm while keeping it holstered?

    Know CT law backwards and forwards. What does it allow you to do. Create your tactics accordingly.
    MitchellCT likes this.
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  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by KimberUltra View Post
    Maybe I missed something, but presenting deadly force is a very important step in saving your own a** correct? In a situation it could be safe to say that 9 times out of 10 just drawing your gun will be enough to stop a pending attack. Why do i have to wait until he is physically attacking me before I can even legally draw on him, let alone shoot him?

    If I'm having a cigarette outside a store or whatever and someone walks up to me asking me for money and blah blah and won't go away when i tell him to. The second i feel like he needs to go away BEFORE he decides to get aggressive I am going to draw on him. It's stupid that I have to wait until he's already a threat to my life to pull out my firearm, and it may already be to late.

    I feel that presenting lethal force is just as bad as using lethal force even though it shouldn't . Can anyone shed some light on that subject?
    If you really don't understand CT law at all, you may want to contact an attorney in CT who knows use of force stuff.

    Anyone know one?

    I think one posts on this boards every so often...Posts as "MitchellCT" or something...

    Anyway...from what I've heard, he's a bit of a...well, language rules on this forum prohibit me from saying my opinion of him, but considering he's a criminal defense attorney in Bridgeport who got mentioned in this article here: Tactical-Life.com » JUSTIFIED SHOOTING AFTERMATH you MIGHT want to get some of his time by buying him drinks and talking to him.

    (Be warned, expensive taste in booze, but it's less expensive than his bill for representing you in anything involving a firearm.)

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