When do you transfer to deadly force?
This is a discussion on When do you transfer to deadly force? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Ok, I am brand new to CC. I have had my permit for exactly 30 hours or so. I have taken safety classes, spent a ...
March 29th, 2011 08:10 PM
When do you transfer to deadly force?
Ok, I am brand new to CC. I have had my permit for exactly 30 hours or so. I have taken safety classes, spent a lot of time on the range, and have carried my pistol around my yard/house for 2 weeks getting ready to carry live. I have NOT read that much on when deadly force is warranted.
For instance, say I am at a gas station pumping gas and somebody comes up to me looking for trouble (just say I am in the wrong place at the wrong time or maybe a panhandler turned violent). When do I have the right to pull my weapon? I mean, if the person is armed with blade or gun then I know I can shoot, but if they are unarmed but want to fight (and I don't) what are my options? (assuming I can't make it to my vehicle to flee?)
Also, can anyone point me to some good books on the subject? Or websites?
Thanks! Just want to be as responsible and prepared as possible.
March 29th, 2011 08:10 PM
March 29th, 2011 08:20 PM
As a last resort, after all lesser means have failed or cannot be reasonably employed. When bodily harm to yourself or death is imminent, and you cannot get away. Last resort, last resort, last resort.
Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.
March 29th, 2011 08:28 PM
I suggest you go directly to the State of Alabama website and look up the Use of Force/Lethal Force laws.
And yet again.
Until you know it cold.
Read until you feel the law in your bones.
Your question above is a good one.
I feel concerned that you depend on a message board instead of reading the law, asking your question above, quoting the applicable Alabama Use of Force/Lethal Force laws in your post, then stating what you would do and why as it relates to the law and your personal tactics. Then ask for group critique.
"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it."
- Frederic Bastiat
March 29th, 2011 08:33 PM
You need not worry. I have already read the AL laws and they are vague at best. This forum is just one of many avenues I am taking to learn what I can and be as informed as necessary. I would not take just the word of someone (anyone) on the interwebs for a topic such as this. That said, I know there is a lot of collective wisdom and experience here, why not tap into it?
Originally Posted by TVJ
March 29th, 2011 08:35 PM
Pretty much what gm said!
Originally Posted by glockman10mm
NEVER, NEVER EVER! Pull you weapon unless ALL other means to stop an "imminent" threat of death or SEVERE bodily harm have been exhausted.
Why not answer your own question by asking yourself another question:
"What would you do in a given SD situation "IF" you did NOT carry a gun?"
But, I would also just go about living your life as if you do NOT have a weapon at your disposal.
I am NOT a lawyer!
If I was, I would probably tell you that asking such advice on a public forum is NOT a great idea!
You may FIRST want to read up on ALL CC and SD laws in your state. Then, consult an attorney if you do not understand something.
Sorry I didn't see the previous post.
March 29th, 2011 08:44 PM
Well, I know most of you could probably care less than to read Alabama Law, but here it is and what it tells me is that there is a LOT open to interpretation. I guess that is where my question came from:
Use of force in defense of a person.
(a) A person is justified in using physical force upon another person in order to defend himself or herself or a third person from what he or she reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of unlawful physical force by that other person, and he or she may use a degree of force which he or she reasonably believes to be necessary for the purpose. A person may use deadly physical force, and is legally presumed to be justified in using deadly physical force in self-defense or the defense of another person pursuant to subdivision (4), if the person reasonably believes that another person is:
(1) Using or about to use unlawful deadly physical force.
(2) Using or about to use physical force against an occupant of a dwelling while committing or attempting to commit a burglary of such dwelling.
(3) Committing or about to commit a kidnapping in any degree, assault in the first or second degree, burglary in any degree, robbery in any degree, forcible rape, or forcible sodomy.
(4) In the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or has unlawfully and forcefully entered, a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or federally licensed nuclear power facility, or is in the process of sabotaging or attempting to sabotage a federally licensed nuclear power facility, or is attempting to remove, or has forcefully removed, a person against his or her will from any dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle when the person has a legal right to be there, and provided that the person using the deadly physical force knows or has reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act is occurring. The legal presumption that a person using deadly physical force is justified to do so pursuant to this subdivision does not apply if:
a. The person against whom the defensive force is used has the right to be in or is a lawful resident of the dwelling, residence, or vehicle, such as an owner or lessee, and there is not an injunction for protection from domestic violence or a written pretrial supervision order of no contact against that person;
b. The person sought to be removed is a child or grandchild, or is otherwise in the lawful custody or under the lawful guardianship of, the person against whom the defensive force is used;
c. The person who uses defensive force is engaged in an unlawful activity or is using the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle to further an unlawful activity; or
d. The person against whom the defensive force is used is a law enforcement officer acting in the performance of his or her official duties.
(b) A person who is justified under subsection (a) in using physical force, including deadly physical force, and who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and is in any place where he or she has the right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground.
(c) Notwithstanding the provisions of subsection (a), a person is not justified in using physical force if:
(1) With intent to cause physical injury or death to another person, he or she provoked the use of unlawful physical force by such other person.
(2) He or she was the initial aggressor, except that his or her use of physical force upon another person under the circumstances is justifiable if he or she withdraws from the encounter and effectively communicates to the other person his or her intent to do so, but the latter person nevertheless continues or threatens the use of unlawful physical force.
(3) The physical force involved was the product of a combat by agreement not specifically authorized by law.
(d) A person who uses force, including deadly physical force, as justified and permitted in this section is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the force was determined to be unlawful.
(e) A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force described in subsection (a), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force used was unlawful.
(Acts 1977, No. 607, p. 812, §610; Acts 1979, No. 79-599, p. 1060, §1; Act 2006-303, p. 638, §1.)
March 29th, 2011 09:51 PM
Hope this helps somewhat. While it may cost LOTS of money ask yourself, is better to be alive than dead?
Originally Posted by smolck
It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45
"Is this persons bad behavior worth me having to kill them over?" Guantes
March 29th, 2011 10:02 PM
I'll give you a thought of mine.
Be neither anxious nor reluctant to use your firearm. Should you have to use it, while you may be relieved, be neither sad nor joyous at the outcome of something resulting from actions that were beyond your control to change.
"I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".
March 29th, 2011 10:08 PM
There are three criteria that should be met in order to deploy your weapon as a deadly force option. Ability, Opportunity, Jeopardy. Do they have the means to kill you, are they bigger than you? Are they carrying or brandishing a weapon of some kind. Is there more than one threat. If the answer is yes than your threat has the means and ability to kill or severely injure you and the first criteria is met. The second, is he physically capable of attacking you, is there something separating them from you such as a fence, wall, car door that is closed, something of that nature that he and or his friends would have to break through to get to you. The question is can he use his weapon, or friends and their weapons to harm you without having to first get to you through a locked hard to penetrate obstacle. If yes the second criteria is met. Finally we come to Jeopardy. Is the man acting aggressively? Say for example he has a baseball bat, is he just walking around with it, or is he threatening, pointing it at you, swinging it at you or walking towards you in an aggressive manner. A reasonable man would say that a man walking around with a bat in his hand is just a man with a bat in his hand, but if he raises it and runs towards someone, that same reasonable man would say that he became aggressive and was attacking. Same with a gun, is the gun in a holster or is he carrying it in his hand while yelling and screaming at you. You know which of those would be a threat. The time for deadly force comes when all other options have been exhausted, these criteria have been met, and you are in fear of yours or someone elses life.
"The value you put on the lost will be determined by the sacrifice you are willing to make to seek them until they are found."
March 29th, 2011 10:40 PM
Good post, and well said. This is why I feel everyone needs self defense classes of some kind. I would be hard pressed to pull my gun in a straight forward fist fight - and I am not a big guy. I have the means to overtake someone, even much bigger or more than one person, because of some pretty good training (or so I would like to think, because it has happened before). I know that I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of a fight against someone who has been well trained.
Originally Posted by INccwchris
March 29th, 2011 10:58 PM
you should really try hard to not get in a fist fight when you have a gun on your person, its a good way to get it taken away from you, and the guy you think you can woop, is the one one that will leave in a pool of your own blood and get to take your gun with them and if your lucky they won't stick it up your butt
Originally Posted by Lotus222
March 29th, 2011 11:02 PM
Well, yes, I agree. I just meant if there was absolutely no other options.
Originally Posted by paullie
March 29th, 2011 11:30 PM
Drill this into your head... When there is an immediate, and otherwise unavoidable threat of death, or crippling injury to yourself or another innocent person!
Dissect and understand each and every word in that statement. Each word in that phrase has literal meaning to it. Learn it, know it, live it.
The two words, "otherwise unavoidable" are just as important as the rest. Live by that phrase and employ lethal force only when that situation presents itself and you'll generally be okay in all 50 states.
Just to help you out as to what constitutes an "Immediate and otherwise threat of death" is generally looked at in terms of the attacker possessing the following three components: Ability/Opportunity/Jeopardy
Ability: The attacker must possess the ability to kill or cripple you. This generally means that he has a weapon capable of inflicting lethal or crippling injury. A gun, a knife (or other edged weapon), a club of sufficient size and weight capable of killing or maiming, etc.
Opportunity: The attacker must at least have the opportunity to use the weapon to kill or cripple you. For example, a gun can be used against you at considerable distance, whereas a man threatening you with a two foot piece of lead pipe, but is standing across the parking lot 30 yards away does not have the opportunity to kill you with it (at least not until he closes the distance and gets a lot closer).
Jeopardy: Often the word is interchanged with intent, means that the person must be actively threatening to harm you with deeds, actions, behavior or verbal threats which are believable. A man casually standing there with a holstered weapon on his person certainly has the opportunity and ability to kill or cripple anyone in the immediate area, but unless he is actually placing you in jeopardy by deeds, actions, behavior or verbal threats, you aren't warranted in responding with lethal force until said person actually places you in jeopardy by his actions and intent to hurt you.
All three of those components, (ability, opportunity and jeopardy) must be present all at the same time to be construed as placing a person in what is referred to as "Immediate and otherwise unavoidable threat of death or crippling injury" in which you would be justified in using lethal force of your own to repel the attack.
Each state has their own nuances and specifics you should be aware of. And there are a lot of "grey areas" which may make a difference. Each situation is going to be unique to you and your specific situation, but generally speaking if you stick to the tenants of the fact that you must be in "immediate and otherwise unavoidable threat of death or crippling injury," which also means the person possesses the "ability to kill or cripple, has the opportunity to kill or cripple, and has placed you in jeopardy by deeds or actions", you should be okay to employ lethal force in that instance.
There's a world of knowledge you'll need to learn about to become well versed in the rules and laws surrounding the legal employment of lethal force. I'm only giving you the no B.S. bottom line in which all the lethal force laws revolve around.
Obviously, the more you know, the more you learn, the more you study, the better your chances of both surviving a lethal encounter, and not getting jammed up in a legal nightmare, the better off you'll be.
I hope this helps steer you in the right direction.
I should point out, I am not an attorney and not giving any legal advice... I just an guy who has studied lethal force for a very long time and hope to hell I'm never in a situation in which I'm facing the proverbial "moment of truth."
When it comes to lethal force and the legal ways to employ it, seek out and read anything written by a chap named Massad Ayoob. A great first book and must have in any gun owners library is In The Gravest Extreme by Massad Ayoob. While the book is a little dated, the material is timeless and is considered by most to be the bible for the legal use of lethal force.
Good luck. Stay armed and stay safe, buddy!
"The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."
March 29th, 2011 11:37 PM
Learn the current laws and stay informed as they may change with every election. Continue getting familiar with your weapon. Pray you never have to use deadly force, practice in case you do.
March 29th, 2011 11:51 PM
The only thing I would add to what Bark'n said is to find a lawyer BEFORE you need one.
Don't do things you don't want to explain to the Paramedics!
Stupidity should be painful.
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