For those of you who study such things; true incident

For those of you who study such things; true incident

This is a discussion on For those of you who study such things; true incident within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I purchased my first gun rag in almost a year today, May issue of Handgunner. In the Ayoob Files , there was described an incident ...

Results 1 to 14 of 14
Like Tree1Likes
  • 1 Post By bmcgilvray

Thread: For those of you who study such things; true incident

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    9,337

    Red face For those of you who study such things; true incident

    I purchased my first gun rag in almost a year today, May issue of Handgunner. In the Ayoob Files , there was described an incident that I had to read because years ago, I had the same thing happen to me, except no shots were fired.

    Of particular interest here is it covers a wide variety of topics we have lively and heated discussions about here on DC, which cover, sight picture vs point shooting, caliber, ammunition count, bullet selection, training advantages, things only an experienced patrol offiver will know that you dont get from any training, and the ability to fight and win due to the psychological factor, emotion, and having something to live for.

    For those of you unfamiliar with the story, I want to share it with you, to discuss, disect, question, and learn from as I have. So, I will attempt to give you the readers digest version of an article.

    A street cop, in good condition with 20 years of service, on Oct 5th 2001, was engaged in a foot pursuit of a gang member in California, in the early morning hours of around 2am.
    During the pursuit, the officer noted the suspects right arm was in front of him, but his left arm pumped as he ran. (my note here; this is the first thing an experienced officer would key in on). The officer already knew this meant he was holding a gun.
    Suddenly, the fleeing suspect pivoted left and lunged into a driveway. To an experienced officer, this means he is either tired and ready to quit, or stand and fight. From experience the officer knew to be ready. (My note; reaction to an action, you are ALWAYS behind action initiated by others). It was too late...

    The officer was almost, two steps from physical contact when the suspect stopped, turned and came up with a Sig 220, and began firing.

    At this time, the officer has already brought his personally G21 into action, and they are both exchanging gunfire. The officer described the changing color of the flame from the muzzle of his opponents weapon as he tried to duck away from the blast while returning fire. He described feeling the shockwaves from the blast and particles of unburnt powder striking his face.

    At some point here in this frantic exchange of gunfire,the officer, with atwo handed grip, focused on the glowing Trijicon sight, he can see the other mans hand move and jerk as his rounds strike him. Both are still on their feet. He knows its only a matter of time before he is hit.

    At only 5 or 6 feet apart, the officer throws himself to the ground to get out of the line of fire still shooting...But now he is hit.

    As the realization of being hit sinks in, he thinks of his daughters, and begans to realize what is at stake. He becomes angry, finds the front sight, presses the trigger, and now the gunman in black is going down.

    The officer later described the man going down as "withering down" like the wicked witch in THE WIZARD OF OZ.

    The suspect is now face down, blood running down into the gutters from under his body. The officer checks his gun. he knows it is not empty, or at least the slide is not locked back.

    Then, like a nightmare, the worst nightmare, the suspect raises himself up on his elbows.

    The officer , not hesitating and bleeding himself, fires twice more.
    His pistol is now empty. He changes mags.

    The officer was hit in the leg, and survived. The wound was thru the leg, so noone knew what ammo the suspect used.

    Out of 14 shots fired by the officer at almost contact distance, 7 hit the target.
    The suspects p220 was empty, but had been hit by one of the officers bullets and rendered inoperable. He fired 9 shots.

    Later the officer stated he was not happy with the ammo he had chosen for carry in his g21. It was Corbon 185 +p, and he did not feel the penetration had been inadaquate.

    The suspect/gunman lived.

    The officer, upon returning to duty, switched to 230 grain Gold Dots.

    The officer stated training and practiced fire from different difficult positions made the difference.

    He also stated if there was one thing he would have done different, it would have been to target the gunmans head sooner.
    His concealment choice as a retired officer today is a g27 loaded with 180 grn Gold Dots.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.


  2. #2
    VIP Member Array First Sgt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Florence, SC
    Posts
    7,967
    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    I purchased my first gun rag in almost a year today, May issue of Handgunner. In the Ayoob Files , there was described an incident that I had to read because years ago, I had the same thing happen to me, except no shots were fired.

    Of particular interest here is it covers a wide variety of topics we have lively and heated discussions about here on DC, which cover, sight picture vs point shooting, caliber, ammunition count, bullet selection, training advantages, things only an experienced patrol offiver will know that you dont get from any training, and the ability to fight and win due to the psychological factor, emotion, and having something to live for.

    For those of you unfamiliar with the story, I want to share it with you, to discuss, disect, question, and learn from as I have. So, I will attempt to give you the readers digest version of an article.

    A street cop, in good condition with 20 years of service good on the officer for maintaining his physical conditioning, even though he's no longer a "youngun"...it shows the value of maintaining your health/physical condition if at all possible..., on Oct 5th 2001, was engaged in a foot pursuit of a gang member in California, in the early morning hours of around 2am.
    During the pursuit, the officer noted the suspects right arm was in front of him, but his left arm pumped as he ran. (my note here; this is the first thing an experienced officer would key in on) definitely speaks to the need for situational awareness all the time, whether in the streets at 2 in the morn or in the Wally World parking lot at 3 in the afternoon. The officer already knew this meant he was holding a gun.
    Suddenly, the fleeing suspect pivoted left and lunged into a driveway. To an experienced officer, this means he is either tired and ready to quit, or stand and fight. From experience the officer knew to be ready. (My note; reaction to an action, you are ALWAYS behind action initiated by others). It was too late...Agreed that he was BEHIND the curve...It's easy to MMQB and say he should have anticipated the gunfire by the BG, but in a high stress situation, you can't always perform the way you've tried to train and prepare. However, you MUST fight to win even when behind the curve and down and out...

    The officer was almost, two steps from physical contact when the suspect stopped, turned and came up with a Sig 220, and began firing see comments in previous sentence.

    At this time, the officer has already brought his personally G21 into action, and they are both exchanging gunfire. The officer described the changing color of the flame from the muzzle of his opponents weapon as he tried to duck away from the blast while returning fire most probably a life saving move, "Getting Off The X". He described feeling the shockwaves from the blast and particles of unburnt powder striking his face Shows that you should train even at "bad breath" distances inorder to recognize what it will feel like, smell like to be in close quarters in a life or death gunfight. The heat, the flash, the powder smell/taste, the concussion from the gunfire...all play a factor in influencing your senses and your reactions...Everyone should train in many different ways, not just punching holes in paper or hearing the plates ring .

    At some point here in this frantic exchange of gunfire,the officer, with atwo handed grip, focused on the glowing Trijicon sight, he can see the other mans hand move and jerk as his rounds strike him. Both are still on their feet. He knows its only a matter of time before he is hit The bottom line is the officer is staying in the fight and not giving up or sitting back waiting on the expected hit...He is FIGHTING...He has made the choice that he wants to be the survivor, regardless of what happens within the fight .

    At only 5 or 6 feet apart, the officer throws himself to the ground to get out of the line of fire still shooting Moving off the "X"...but also can be considered an attempt/action to break the OODA loop of the BG and gain the upper hand..It shows that when you are behind the curve, you must continue to do something to gain the upper hand...But now he is hit.

    As the realization of being hit sinks in, he thinks of his daughters, and begans to realize what is at stake. He becomes angry, finds the front sight, presses the trigger ahhhh...MINDSET...the game changer, even above TRAINING OR SKILL OR GEAR,,,, and now the gunman in black is going down.

    The officer later described the man going down as "withering down" like the wicked witch in THE WIZARD OF OZ NEVER assume that just because your opponent is down that he is out of the fight...Shoot to STOP the threat and NOT just put him down...I think that's exactly what this officer did...He was in the fight, is aware of what has happened, and is assessing the need to continue.

    The suspect is now face down, blood running down into the gutters from under his body. The officer checks his gun. he knows it is not empty, or at least the slide is not locked back At the point the officer checked his gun, realized he wasn't at slide lock, if at all possible he should have done an EMERGENCY RELOAD...However, he was lucky in the fact that he still had rounds remaining when the suspect raised up to continue to fight .

    Then, like a nightmare, the worst nightmare, the suspect raises himself up on his elbows.

    The officer , not hesitating and bleeding himself, fires twice more.
    His pistol is now empty. He changes mags As stated above, an EMERGENCY RELOAD should have been accomplished prior to the suspect rising...Luckily the officer had the two remaining rounds to finish the fight. What IF those two rounds had NOT been sufficient?.

    The officer was hit in the leg, and survived. The wound was thru the leg, so noone knew what ammo the suspect used Was the suspect's weapon not recovered? How did they not know what ammo was used?.

    Out of 14 shots fired by the officer at almost contact distance, 7 hit the target Well above the statistical 20% hit rate in most officer involved gunfights. I think the officer can attribute this to his EXTRA training.
    The suspects p220 was empty, but had been hit by one of the officers bullets and rendered inoperable Unlucky for the suspect, lucky for the officer that the suspect's weapon was out of commission. He fired 9 shots.

    Later the officer stated he was not happy with the ammo he had chosen for carry in his g21. It was Corbon 185 +p, and he did not feel the penetration had been inadaquate I'm astounded that the officer was displeased with the performance of his ammunition. In a 5-6 foot gunfight, how in the world will a heavier grain affect where the shots landed and the damage done? I personally don't think ammo had anything to do with it...Round placement/hits determined the survival of the gunman, not the grain of the ammo .

    The suspect/gunman lived.

    The officer, upon returning to duty, switched to 230 grain Gold Dots.

    The officer stated training and practiced fire from different difficult positions made the difference Good on the officer for his expanded training regimen and it should be an eyeopener to all of us who wish to prepare for the worst.

    He also stated if there was one thing he would have done different, it would have been to target the gunmans head sooner I'm not sure, as fast as things were happening, that targeting the head would have crossed anyone's mind, even this officer...It's one thing to say you will target the head in a distance shot that is NOT a bang bang bang type gunfight, but another to think to target the head while getting off an initial 12 rounds in probably 5-15 second timeframe. Perhaps he could have targeted the head on his last two rounds, but my guess is, again, he reacted to putting the threat out of the fight and getting his rounds on target first, unknowing that the suspects gun was inoperable .
    His concealment choice as a retired officer today is a g27 loaded with 180 grn Gold Dots.
    My questions/comments to the OP are in BOLD above. Let me say, I have the utmost respect for the men in uniform and as this officer is described, I definitely admire him and his approaches to training, equipment, execution of his job, and his mindset. With that being said, I do tend to disagree/question a couple of his observations and/or actions and I guess that's what makes these types of discussions invaluable in the search for the best answers and responses to given situations. It's easy to Monday Morning Quarterback our answers to this scenario as we've had time to read/reread the actions of suspect and officer. I'm just glad the officer survived. Good on him. JMO
    Sometimes in life you have to stand your ground. It's a hard lesson to learn and even most adults don't get it, but in the end only I can be responsible for my life. If faced with any type of adversity, only I can overcome it. Waiting for someone else to take responsibility is a long fruitless wait.

  3. #3
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    9,337
    They did not know the type of ammo used by the gunman due to his gun being empty, and no bullets recovered, and in this I suppose they knew the brand but not bullet profile. Maybe later on in the trial or interrogation this came out. But remember, he was probably hospitilized for some time.

    Some of the things that stood out to me are the fact that he did not do an immediate reload, but, in all fairness, he was probably not even in his right mind.

    As someone who has participated in a few foot pursuits, I wonder if the outcome would have been worse if he had caught up and tackled the gunmen. Then it would have been a fight over the weapon. But its hard to imagine it getting ant worse than that.

    I believe his assesment of the lightweight, CORBON ammo is correct. Those that are familiar with my posts, know that I have always advocated heavy for caliber bullets for this very reason. With less sectional density, lower weight, higher speed, and modern hollowpoint design, I believe these bullets probably expanded very quickly, and lowered the effectiveness of strikes against bone structure, if any was hit. Its hard to imagine not one of 7 bullets not running a course to some kind of bone.

    In his experience, as clearly evident by the events, it would seem that using the front sight, even as a reference still works wonders to put rounds on target.

    It further reinforces my opinion that caliber is not the final answer in stopping power.

    It makes me look forward to retirement.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  4. #4
    RKM
    RKM is offline
    Distinguished Member Array RKM's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    1,867
    I wonder if it was DPX he was using, because DPX is know for it's penetration and reliable expansion. I'm typically a fan of heavy bullets per caliber. My AR is loaded with 75gr, my Mk40 is loaded with 180gr, USP has 230gr +P's, but I carry in my Glock, DPX 185gr +P. I choose it to carry due to all the praise it gets and it functions well. If they made 230 DPX.... I'd have it. Though I agree with First Sgt that placement was probably more of a factor. And perfect placement in a gun fight (only a few feet or not) isn't easy. Our biggest concern usually is don't get hit, and trying not to get hit makes getting good hits VERY difficult.

  5. #5
    Moderator
    Array bmcgilvray's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    10,307
    Certainly is a jarring incident that illustrates how handguns don't answer to all self defense needs every time.

    I'd sure hate to "Monday morning quarterback" this incident too much.


    "...not the grain of the ammo ."


    Just for future reference: A grain is the smallest unit of weight in the avoirdupois and troy systems. It is not a synonym for weight which is relative mass or quantity of matter.

    One would no more ask: "What is the grain of the ammo" than he would ask: "What is the pound of that black bass" or "what is the cup of butter in that recipe."
    bbqgrill likes this.
    Charter Member of the DC .41 LC Society "Get heeled! No really"

    “No possible rapidity of fire can atone for habitual carelessness of aim with the first shot.”

    Theodore Roosevelt, The Wilderness Hunter, 1893

  6. #6
    Member Array crabbys44's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Austin, TX
    Posts
    236
    I remember a LAPD Officer who was in a gunfight in her driveway. She had just got off duty and was driving home in shorts and a t-shirt. Her housemate was a cop and her neighbors were cops so when she got out of her truck she just carried her Beretta in her hand for the short walk to the door. This ass-bag banger pulled in behind her and rushed her with a .357 in his hand. He fired 1 round that went THROUGH her heart (off duty, no body armor). Her reaction was to fire 4 rounds at the POS and hit with each one. He falls dead at her feet and the trauma surgeon said that he'd never seen a heart with that much damage in a living person (which is why the story stuck in my head). She survived (in large part due to living in a neighborhood full of 1st responders) and returned to duty with a commendation (I'm guessing for not giving up while seriously wounded). IIRC her name is Stacy Lim.

    The point I'm trying to make is to never give up or stop fighting! Shot placement is important. He scored what should have been a fatal shot with his 1st round and she scored 4 hits returning fire after taking one through the heart. IIRC I believe the reason behind the attack was a single female driving a nice ride and a POS who was expecting a victim, not a warrior.

    KUDOS to the Officer in the OP.
    Courage is endurance for one moment more…

    Hollowpoints might expand, but bullets won't shrink.

    Μολών Λαβέ

  7. #7
    Senior Member Array bbqgrill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    In Delaware, East of the Mason Dixon Line.
    Posts
    797
    Quote Originally Posted by bmcgilvray View Post
    Certainly is a jarring incident that illustrates how handguns don't answer to all self defense needs every time.

    I'd sure hate to "Monday morning quarterback" this incident too much.


    "...not the grain of the ammo ."


    Just for future reference: A grain is the smallest unit of weight in the avoirdupois and troy systems. It is not a synonym for weight which is relative mass or quantity of matter.

    One would no more ask: "What is the grain of the ammo" than he would ask: "What is the pound of that black bass" or "what is the cup of butter in that recipe."
    Gun porno can not be caught up in those details.
    "To believe that social reforms can eradicate evil altogether is to forget that evil is a protean creature, forever assuming a new shape when deprived of an old one." - SAT

    Never argue with an idiot - they'll bring you down to their level then beat you with experience.

  8. #8
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Missouri
    Posts
    1,492
    First off let me say to MMQB this is hard and most likely wrong as I was not there and it is easy to say this or that when you are not taking incoming rounds. He made it through the fight and got to go home to his loved ones. So what I am posting is more of a what I try to train and do. Would I? I can only hope I would as so get to go home to family.

    Mine in Bold


    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    At this time, the officer has already brought his personally G21 into action, and they are both exchanging gunfire. The officer described the changing color of the flame from the muzzle of his opponents weapon as he tried to duck away from the blast while returning fire. He described feeling the shockwaves from the blast and particles of unburnt powder striking his face. What I hear in reading this is "he did not move his feet only ducked his head. Not enough moving off the X, make the BG change his loop and line of sight as much as possible.

    At some point here in this frantic exchange of gunfire,the officer, with atwo handed grip, focused on the glowing Trijicon sight, he can see the other mans hand move and jerk as his rounds strike him. Both are still on their feet. He knows its only a matter of time before he is hit. Again in my minds eye reading this I see him standing still and firing his gun at the BG. I train once I move off the X to keep moving.

    At only 5 or 6 feet apart, the officer throws himself to the ground to get out of the line of fire still shooting...But now he is hit. Here he is hit and may not be able to stand and use his leg. But once you are on the ground you are planted, stay on your feet and move if at all posssible.

    As the realization of being hit sinks in, he thinks of his daughters, and begans to realize what is at stake. He becomes angry, finds the front sight, presses the trigger, and now the gunman in black is going down. This is good his mindset kicks in and he is in the fight to win at all costs. Don't give up just because you are hit. Take the SOB out!

    The officer later described the man going down as "withering down" like the wicked witch in THE WIZARD OF OZ.

    The suspect is now face down, blood running down into the gutters from under his body. The officer checks his gun. he knows it is not empty, or at least the slide is not locked back. Train to reload at this time in training, make it habit.

    Then, like a nightmare, the worst nightmare, the suspect raises himself up on his elbows.

    The officer , not hesitating and bleeding himself, fires twice more. This is one reason I don't like mag release safeties, what if this happened during your tactical reload?
    His pistol is now empty. He changes mags.

    The officer was hit in the leg, and survived. The wound was thru the leg, so noone knew what ammo the suspect used.

    Out of 14 shots fired by the officer at almost contact distance, 7 hit the target.
    The suspects p220 was empty, but had been hit by one of the officers bullets and rendered inoperable. He fired 9 shots.

    Later the officer stated he was not happy with the ammo he had chosen for carry in his g21. It was Corbon 185 +p, and he did not feel the penetration had been inadaquate. If I were to carry a 45 it would have 230 gr rounds the only other round I would possibly carry is the Corbon DPX. I am guessing his Corbons were not DPXs

    The suspect/gunman lived.

    The officer, upon returning to duty, switched to 230 grain Gold Dots. Good defensive round

    The officer stated training and practiced fire from different difficult positions made the difference. Just wonder, did he ever training shooting without having a sight picture? In his fight he would have been hard pressed to keep his sights in the fight. I would think, practice point shooting before it is needed.

    He also stated if there was one thing he would have done different, it would have been to target the gunmans head sooner.
    His concealment choice as a retired officer today is a g27 loaded with 180 grn Gold Dots. Here again is your training, do you practice doing head shots as your first target at contact distance?
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

    "Is this persons bad behavior worth me having to kill them over?" Guantes

  9. #9
    VIP Member
    Array Pistology's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    South Coast LA Cty
    Posts
    2,152
    This thread is rightfully mostly about the fight. But about the choosing of ammo for stopping power by penetration versus by expansion:
    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    I believe his assesment of the lightweight, CORBON ammo is correct. Those that are familiar with my posts, know that I have always advocated heavy for caliber bullets for this very reason. With less sectional density, lower weight, higher speed, and modern hollowpoint design, I believe that these bullets probably expanded very quickly [and so were less effective].
    This links to a definition of "sectional density" as, "a bullet's weight in pounds divided by the square of its diameter in inches" and a neat table of ammo comparison. Is 'sectional density" a better factor in handgun ammo selection than the dubious handgun muzzle energy? Or, with shot placement, are you saying that heavy and high grain count are the most significant factors in handgun SD ammo selection?
    You are a worthy poster who brings a lot of experience from which many of us may benefit. Please order your factors in SD ammo selection given your EDC for concealment. Or tell me that I'm missing the point.
    Americans understood the right of self-preservation as permitting a citizen to repel force by force
    when the intervention of society... may be too late to prevent an injury.
    -Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

  10. #10
    Senior Member Array Chad Rogers's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Metro DC
    Posts
    958
    Good incident story.

    Foot pursuits can be both exhilirating and they can suck. It's just very hard to maintain officer survival control of the situation and not overextend yourself during a foot pursuit. The bad guy who may be inclined to shoot starts getting a decided advantage in selecting when and where. There was a story out of Mexico a few months back where the bad guy simply fired over his shoulder without looking while running and drilled the officer.

  11. #11
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    9,337
    Pistology, it is my opinion, based on observation, that when bullet weight is reduced, which gives the effect of shaving some weight off the backside, then it loses some of it's ability to penetrate, and becomes more dependent on gained velocity to make up the difference. If the bullet design remains the same, for the 230 and 185, then expansion may occur more rapidly. As the frontal area of the bullet increases during penetration, so does the resistance against it by tissue and matter.

    The key here I believe is a good balance. If we tilt the cart one way or the other we lose that balance. This of course is my opinion. But, I prefer for my own selection to error on the side of penetration, my reasoning here is bullet expansion is based on variables demanding everthing to work properly, and I can't control that.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  12. #12
    Distinguished Member Array GunGeezer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    1,249
    Excuse me for suggesting that you guys are over-thinking these scenario's. Situations like these almost assuredly smack of the hand of providence, or, if you will, divine intervention. It always trumps shot placement, caliber and grains. And no I am not a religious fanatic.

  13. #13
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    9,337
    I base my ammo selection on weight, always go heavy in 38spl, 9mm, and 40 s&w, and 45 acp. On hot magnums like the 357 that churn up alot of velocity, I will choose a lighter to mid weight bullet of controlled expansion.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  14. #14
    Ex Member Array azchevy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Oceanfront Property
    Posts
    3,850
    Thank you for the post.

Sponsored Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Search tags for this page

front sight defensive handgun

,

move another man's hand jerk him off

Click on a term to search for related topics.