Defense of Other People - Food for thought

This is a discussion on Defense of Other People - Food for thought within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; From my post relating to the same question posted elsewhere but fitting here. If it's CLEAR what's happening: I pass an area every day - ...

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Thread: Defense of Other People - Food for thought

  1. #16
    Ex Member Array hamlet's Avatar
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    From my post relating to the same question posted elsewhere but fitting here. If it's CLEAR what's happening:

    I pass an area every day - now one campus area out of 2 campuses of a very large University. There are still some remnants of what was a vibrant college area around the first, the city, campus. (The other, with more students is in burbs outside of the city.) The city campus area has gone to the dogs. Regular shootings etc. So year and a half ago, some university students attacked another student outside of bar who they did know but who they got furious about; the other student, the victim, was a graduate student; the attackers were undergraduates. He was beaten and then kicked while he was on the ground repeatedly by all 4 who had boots on. By the time help arrived he was paralyzed for life with a broken neck and back. This was the day before he was to graduate from Engineering School. The student attackers were charged with very serious violent crimes by the outraged DA and convicted.

    If I had been driving buy and saw the young man being violently assaulted that way, I would get my very powerful Surefire Combat flashlight, jump out of the car and from a distance hit them with the beam - which is blinding and scream "POLICE! Freeze! Drop to the ground with your arms out and legs spread!" while hitting 911. (I AM NOT A LEO) But, if one had come near me to attack or they had kept on attacking - they were drunk after all and might - I would then go over, pull my gun and yell "Back, Desist. Or I fire!" If they stopped killing the guy and didn't approach me. That would be it. If they still didn't stop or made to attack me I'd shoot. It was clear to many watching that they were killing this guy. And without jumping to the gun first, if it did had to be the last of attempts to save the guy - or save me if they turned on me - I would use it at the end after trying other things first: i couldn't watch someone being kicked to death by 4 others. And since he already had a broken back/neck waiting on a squad car is not an option, one more kick could be the killing one. And if I got charged - or even convicted - with a serious crime - which I doubt given the circumstances, I would still be satisfied with my involvement. There are time, it's you or nobody to help. This would have been one of those times. I would have no regrets, and if there was punishment for me at the end of the day, I could accept it calmly because I could accept myself and with thankfulness that I had risen to the occasion and been "that one person who is marked by the fates to stop a killing."

    There are times, when non-involvement is not an option, though most others it is. On the other hand, you have to differentiate what those are from some weird private agenda to be Batman or something like that and interfere where it's not necessary. But if it's time, it's time. You or no one.

    As far as impersonating a LEO to save a life - well, still dicey - but I doubt I'd be charged:

    From a legal "dictionary":

    "NECESSITY

    A defense asserted by a criminal or civil defendant that he or she had no choice but to break the law.

    The necessity defense has long been recognized as Common Law and has also been made part of most states' statutory law. Although no federal statute acknowledges the defense, the Supreme Court has recognized it as part of the common law. The rationale behind the necessity defense is that sometimes, in a particular situation, a technical breach of the law is more advantageous to society than the consequence of strict adherence to the law. The defense is often used successfully in cases that involve a Trespass on property to save a person's life or property. It also has been used, with varying degrees of success, in cases involving more complex questions.

    Almost all common-law and statutory definitions of the necessity defense include the following elements: (1) the defendant acted to avoid a significant risk of harm; (2) no adequate lawful means could have been used to escape the harm; and (3) the harm avoided was greater than that caused by breaking the law. Some jurisdictions require in addition that the harm must have been imminent and that the action taken must have been reasonably expected to avoid the imminent danger. All these elements mirror the principles on which the defense of necessity was founded: first, that the highest social value is not always achieved by blind adherence to the law; second, that it is unjust to punish those who technically violate the letter of the law when they are acting to promote or achieve a higher social value than would be served by strict adherence to the law; and third, that it is in society's best interest to promote the greatest good and to encourage people to seek to achieve the greatest good, even if doing so necessitates a technical breach of the law."

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  3. #17
    Senior Member Array 380ACP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cnauman View Post
    You can type that, but in a real situation you won't know so it makes it unrealistic in my opinion.
    I agree with this...a lot.

    I'd like to say and think that I'd do certain things but until I've been there I won't really know what I'll do.

    In my little brain-movies I'd like to think if I saw someone else's life in certain danger I'd do something to intervene.
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    An intruder will be incapacitated by tear gas or oven spray, but if shot with a .357 Magnum will get angry and kill you.

  4. #18
    Distinguished Member Array INccwchris's Avatar
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    Hamlet, I guarantee you would be charged with impersonating a police officer in any jurisdiction, if there is one thing cops hate more than cop killers it is cop impersonators. Very very bad idea. In fact here is proof. The smarter thing to do would be to yell I have a gun, leave him alone or I will shoot you.


    "The other guy grabbed a bag, a duffle bag and started running across the street. The one gentleman turned around and started yelling, ‘stop hey, stop that's my stuff’," Brookhouse said.

    Brookhouse pulled his car over and intervened.

    But in the heat of the moment this concealed weapons permit holder made an erroneous claim.

    "I pulled my weapon and I told the gentleman, I made a mistake here, I said, "Boise Police. Stop. You're under arrest." So, he did, I asked him to get on the ground, we did all the hands behind your back thing. I frisked him and then held him at gun point until the police department got here," Brookhouse said.

    Police identified the man Brookhouse stopped as 46-year-old John Dickey.

    But before police arrived another man driving by saw Brookhouse holding Dickey at gun point.

    He too held a concealed weapons permit."

    Concealed Carry Forum - Two men brandish during citizen's arrest in Boise
    "The value you put on the lost will be determined by the sacrifice you are willing to make to seek them until they are found."

  5. #19
    Distinguished Member Array kelcarry's Avatar
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    Take comments by Hiram and NC, put them together and they answer this question very well. In SC we have the Alter Ego rule that allows you to intervene as if the person in danger is you. It really comes down to fully understanding what is going on--then it becomes a judgement call on your part although I would think that you will know when someone is in imminent danger of death or great bodily injury.

  6. #20
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    I could not live with myself if I stood by and let someone die when I had the means to prevent it. That's just me, my training, my upbringing. Being a "good witness" and dialing 911 would not ease my conscience one iota. That's reporting--not preventing.

    Would there/could there be some legal or physical reprecussions? Certainly. I wouldn't charge foolhardly into a situation where the outcome for me or everyone else was placed in doubt by my actions, but I would if my actions might put an end to the situation. There's a risk factor in every breath we take. I can have a stroke while taking a shower. That doesn't mean I won't bathe. I carry to protect: me, the wife, you--no difference.

    But that's me,, not everyone else.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

  7. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chad Rogers View Post
    Jus remember who the very first person who got arrested for violating NYC's new mandatory 1-year in jail for possessing a fiream in the mid-80s. A truck drive from NC. He had just come out of the Holland Tunnel. when he saw a man beaing a woman. He jumped out of the truck and came to the rescue. Of a ho being beaten by her pimp.

    Guess who went to jail that day?
    Some places are an abhorance of humanity and common sense. Let those who create the sewer live in it.
    bmcgilvray likes this.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

  8. #22
    Distinguished Member Array claude clay's Avatar
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    my whole carry life has been in Connecticut. i know the laws here well enough.....i say well enough cause i am not a lawyer and the laws change. but here is the kicker....if any shots are fired or anyone (even the BG) is injured, no matter if i am found to be legally right, my involvement is going to cost me. me and my family 2 or so years of court and i will have paid for my attorneys' child to go to YALE. though it may well be right to get involved, can you afford to get involved? the courts, by the laws they enforce, make it that you must ask yourself that question. sad, ain't it...

    and yes, i have gotten involved 3 times; no shots ever fired. i attribute that to situational awareness and that i am adrenalin proof.
    Arthritis sucks big-big
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    Why do those elected to positions of power than work so hard
    to deny those same opportunities to the same people who empowered them

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