Defense of Other People - Food for thought

This is a discussion on Defense of Other People - Food for thought within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; OK, I have been reading threads here and other forums and hear differing opinions on this. Some people state that they would protect themselves and ...

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 22
Like Tree1Likes

Thread: Defense of Other People - Food for thought

  1. #1
    Member Array tomtsr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Denver, CO
    Posts
    188

    Defense of Other People - Food for thought

    OK, I have been reading threads here and other forums and hear differing opinions on this.

    Some people state that they would protect themselves and their family only and would not intervene if their family were not being threatened. I know that the laws vary from state to state, but most I have read have a provision for "defense of others." I am not an attorney and would never attempt to interpret the law, just asking opinions.

    So here are my questions:

    1. If you were in a situation whereby you had a legal and ethical shoot situation should your family be involved, but the players are "others", would you intervene ?

    2. If you decided to intervene, what steps would you use to determine when to shoot?

    3. If you decide to be a good witness, what measures would you have to take to deal with watching someone be killed and not assisting?

    Most states have provisions that release someone from the obligation to assist so that is not an issue.

    I believe that I could say what I think I would do, but honestly have no way of being sure until the situation arises. I am asking because, like most CC folks, I have never been in that situation, never had to draw my firearm on someone, and hope I never do.
    Train like your life depends on it, because it does.

    NRA Life Member

  2. Remove Ads

  3. #2
    VIP Member Array Hiram25's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Wyoming, DE
    Posts
    10,991
    As an ex-LEO, my training would kick in and I would shoot to protect someone else. Been there, you will know when it's time to shoot.
    Hiram25
    You can educate ignorance, you can't fix stupid
    Retired DE Trooper, SA XD40 SC, S&W 2" Airweight
    dukalmighty & Pure Kustom Black Ops Pro "Trooper" Holsters, DE CCDW and LEOSA Permits, Vietnam Vet 68-69 Pleiku

  4. #3
    Senior Member Array Spidey2011's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Montana
    Posts
    887
    I'd like to think that I would, since anyone shooting people is a danger to myself as well. If it's just a fist fight, I'd let them duke it out. If there is a weapon involved, I think I would assist, but you can never really be sure until you're there.

  5. #4
    Senior Member Array Chad Rogers's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Metro DC
    Posts
    958
    Jus remember who the very first person who got arrested for violating NYC's new mandatory 1-year in jail for possessing a fiream in the mid-80s. A truck drive from NC. He had just come out of the Holland Tunnel. when he saw a man beaing a woman. He jumped out of the truck and came to the rescue. Of a ho being beaten by her pimp.

    Guess who went to jail that day?

  6. #5
    VIP Member Array Thunder71's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Minnesota, USA
    Posts
    2,519
    What if the guy with the gun is an undercover LEO and you shoot him?

    Without knowing all the facts, I'm out.

  7. #6
    Member Array tomtsr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Denver, CO
    Posts
    188
    I should make this statement. The statement that it was a legal and ethical shoot was intended to mean that all the variances of the unknown were clear. Not a LEO or such but a legitimate shoot situation if the threat were at you or your family.

    Just to simplify things.
    Train like your life depends on it, because it does.

    NRA Life Member

  8. #7
    VIP Member Array Thunder71's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Minnesota, USA
    Posts
    2,519
    You can type that, but in a real situation you won't know so it makes it unrealistic in my opinion.

  9. #8
    VIP Member Array Hiram25's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Wyoming, DE
    Posts
    10,991
    Quote Originally Posted by Chad Rogers View Post
    Jus remember who the very first person who got arrested for violating NYC's new mandatory 1-year in jail for possessing a fiream in the mid-80s. A truck drive from NC. He had just come out of the Holland Tunnel. when he saw a man beaing a woman. He jumped out of the truck and came to the rescue. Of a ho being beaten by her pimp.

    Guess who went to jail that day?
    Well, that's the way it works in NYC!
    Hiram25
    You can educate ignorance, you can't fix stupid
    Retired DE Trooper, SA XD40 SC, S&W 2" Airweight
    dukalmighty & Pure Kustom Black Ops Pro "Trooper" Holsters, DE CCDW and LEOSA Permits, Vietnam Vet 68-69 Pleiku

  10. #9
    VIP Member Array NC Bullseye's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    NC Foothills
    Posts
    2,516
    If, as you said, you know all the prerequisite conditions have been met then yes, it'd be a shoot situation for me.

    In NC there are 4 conditions that have to be met to justify the use of deadly force,

    1. The citizen actually believes deadly force is
    necessary to prevent an imminent threat of
    death, great bodily harm, or sexual assault, and

    2. The facts and circumstances prompting that
    belief would cause a person of ordinary firmness
    to believe deadly force was necessary to prevent
    an imminent threat of death, great bodily harm,
    or sexual assault, and

    3. The citizen using deadly force was not an
    instigator or aggressor who voluntarily
    provoked, entered, or continued the conflict
    leading to deadly force, and

    4. Force used was not excessive - greater than
    reasonably needed to overcome the threat posed
    by a hostile aggressor.

    NC also allows you to use deadly force in the defense of others as long as they have met the above stipulations.

  11. #10
    VIP Member Array rammerjammer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Omaha, Nebraska
    Posts
    3,382
    It's hard to answer this type of scenario. But, unless it is a mad gunman type of situation I am probably not going to intervene. There are two many variables that come into play. You may think that you are helping or really are helping to then find out that the victim is now going to blame you for taking action. I remember reading about a couple outside of a McDonalds who drew down on a guy beating a woman with a baby. The perp ran and when he was caught the victim blamed the couple for getting her "baby daddy" in trouble.

    As a former public school teacher, I know that you put yourself at grave risk when you help certain people. And quite simply, some people aren't worth risking yourself for. I'm not going to jail or getting sued over some scumbag.

  12. #11
    VIP Member Array Old School's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Florida Treasure Coast
    Posts
    3,211
    In The Gravest Extreme by Massod Ayoob is a must read for all of those who legally carry in self defense.

    In Florida deadly force can be used in the defense of others if, "you are someone else is in emminate, immediate danger of death or great bodily harm".

    I would need to know that I know that I know what the situation was before using deadly force but if I knew it was justified I would act accordingly.
    "Violence is seldom the answer, but when it is the answer it is the only answer".

    "A nation of sheep breeds a government of wolves".

    http://www.woundedwarriorproject.org/

  13. #12
    Senior Member Array Chad Rogers's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Metro DC
    Posts
    958
    Quote Originally Posted by Old School View Post
    In The Gravest Extreme by Massod Ayoob is a must read for all of those who legally carry in self defense.
    I feel very strongly that way also. I first read it about 30-years ago. Still have my copy. Another classic I still have is his The Truth About Self Protection.

  14. #13
    TVJ
    TVJ is offline
    Senior Member Array TVJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Tejas
    Posts
    668
    Quote Originally Posted by cnauman View Post
    You can type that, but in a real situation you won't know so it makes it unrealistic in my opinion.
    Some situtations I totally disagree with your assessment. Here is one:


    Convenience store; youre getting something in an isle away from the cash register midday.

    Thug walks in, bandanna over face...holding knife....threatening clerk at register, (Give me the F-ing Money...!!!) then goes and begins attacking clerk with knife, doesnt see you..no one else in store..........

    I dont know what MN law allows. Texas greenlights as reasonable the use of lethal force in this situation to protect a third party.

    There is a scenario that fits OP. What does MN law allow you to do? What do you allow yourself to do?


    Personally, I shoot the perp into the ground at the point I can get a clean shot(s). I also believe the odds of this happening in my life are astronomically low.

    My issue that is really hard to deal with is watching an innocent get killed in front of my eyes and doing nothing. I balance this against avoiding getting killed/gravely injured myself.
    Last edited by TVJ; April 12th, 2011 at 10:28 PM. Reason: clarity
    "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it."
    - Frederic Bastiat

  15. #14
    Moderator
    Array RETSUPT99's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Central Florida
    Posts
    44,563
    Tough question...I'd have to be there to analyze the situation, in 2 seconds or less...good luck!
    The last Blood Moon Tetrad for this millennium starts in April 2014 and ends in September 2015...according to NASA.

    ***********************************
    Certified Glock Armorer
    NRA Life Member[/B]

  16. #15
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Outside Seattle, WA
    Posts
    3,309
    I am willing to do so, to shoot to save others. However I know a major factor that would slow my decision (critical seconds) would be ensuring I was RIGHT, that the situation was crystal clear, *that is a bad guy* and that I had a clear backstop. I know that any uncertainty there would slow me down, very possibly to the point of missing the opportunity. Part of this is because, having been in crisis situations, I know how easily one can perceive what they want to perceive....and not even notice other critical factors. That tunnel vision.

    And another thing I'd consider...that I dont often see mentioned in these threads...that once I draw a gun, it changes the dynamics of the situation in a million unpredictable ways. And I dont even mean with the assailants. I mean with anyone present, anyone passing by, any responder...anyone can see that gun and react in ways you have no way to predict. It can be as small as calling attention to you as a threat to the BG...it can be as much as to draw attacks upon you from bystanders, cops, etc.

    You cannot control or even predict these things...but you should be aware that once you draw in a real situation, you'd better be willing to ACT, immediately, based on a variety of actions outside your control. (And that doesnt necessarily mean shooting.) It's very unlikely things will go as you plan.

    So yes, I do wonder how long it would take me to assess a situation. My instincts would be to react immediately...and as written, reacting by drawing too quickly may not be the best way to react.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Search tags for this page

acronym for elements of necessity under common law
,

defense of other person

,
food for defense persons
,
impersonating a police officer florida necessity defense
,
people defensive scenarios
Click on a term to search for related topics.