July 23rd, 2006 12:50 AM
Restaurant Robbery (img)
OK, you and a family member (be it your wife, husband, child, pick one) are dining at a restaurant. The restaurant isn't very busy and there's only 14 people there (including you and your family member). There are 3 servers, 1 bus boy, 1 cook, and 1 manager that are staff there. Then in comes 2 BGs into the restaurant...
The first BG goes for the manager with a gun and attempts to rob the manager behind the front counter. The second BG is armed with a knife and is starting to approach patrons to rob them individually. There is only 1 exit that you know of (the front door) and the bathroom is on the N/W corner of the restaurant (top-left).
The first BG can see into the kitchen because there is a window facing the front counter. The cook is not moving because the first BG can see through that window. The bus boy is also in the kitchen and has no idea of what is going on. There is also door-high partitions seperating the different sets of tables and the top half is some type of stained glass. No one has dialed 9-1-1 yet. What do you do?
July 23rd, 2006 12:59 AM
If it were me I would head for the kitchen with my family memeber if I haven't been noticed. When I get into the kitchen I use my cell to call the police and see if I can get to a rear door even if it means crawling on the floor. Getting my family out is the priority, not being a hero or staying where we can be a victim
"[T]he people are not to be disarmed of their weapons.
They are left in full possession of them."
Zacharia Johnson (speech in the Virginia Ratifying Convention,25 June 1778)"The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed."
July 23rd, 2006 12:19 PM
No time to be a hero and in any restaurant by law you have to have an alternative exit. Now, looking at your diagram I would draw my weapon and my family member and I would get up and low walk into the kitchen and out to the street where I would call the cops. The way you have it drawn you have two doors that lead into the kitchen and more than likely the BG is covering the manager and watching his friend as he robs each patron. You are more than likely out of site and out of mind so do even look that way, and just move fast and deliberate. Stay Low....
Listen, Think and React.....Nuff Said.....
July 23rd, 2006 01:12 PM
Get into that kitchen and get the Helloutta Dodge.
Of course, that 's the "I have the diagram and know what and where all the threats are" answer.
Real life might be a bit dicier a proposition....
July 23rd, 2006 01:50 PM
I agree with heading for the kitchen as the best bet. Out of the two robbers i'd pay the most attention to the one with the gun. The one with the knife wouldnt be much of a threat as long as a good distance is kept between him and me.
July 23rd, 2006 02:01 PM
I am not sanguine about calling down a fire-fight in the restaurant.
Like others have suggested, if exiting through the kitchen looks viable, away we go.
If not, Just sit tight and be a good witness.
IF, on the other hand, the BGs make an effort to round everyone up and head back to the back of the establishment, I consider that the classic first step toward a massacre. As soon as a shot presents itself under those conditions, I will engage.
If some lowlife is going to kill me in a robbery, I'll at least try to meet two goals:
1. He's going to have to do it to my face, not in the back
2. I will be found in a pile of brass.
Of course, the preferred option is to neutralize the BG and not get myself killed, but we don't always get what we want. We can, however, make sure we don't die like a
Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
Blame it on Sixto - now that is a viable plan.
July 23rd, 2006 03:23 PM
Ditto. The operative word is "viable". I'm assuming the idiot with the gun has at least practiced a bit, both the robbery part and the shooting skills. It's fairly unlikely that moving across his direct line of sight toward the kitchen (exit???) would go unnoticed. No guarantees there is a working exit out that kitchen, either. Assuming so, but how does one know, in advance? If it could be done without attracting immediate retribution and the distances were great enough, I'd skedaddle. Definitely.
I am not sanguine about calling down a fire-fight in the restaurant. Like others have suggested, if exiting through the kitchen looks viable, away we go. If not, Just sit tight and be a good witness. IF, on the other hand, the BGs make an effort to round everyone up and head ...
As to whether I'd find it smart to just be a witness ... I'm all for avoiding the shooting. No one would prefer to go there, if afforded the choice. But, every situation is different. The BG's are directing its flow. Any given situation can unfold a variety of ways. BG's don't ply this line of work because they are mentally stable, in the first place. Anything's possible.
Frankly, given that I've got someone to protect (in the hypothetical scenario presented), if the BG collecting the goods was still lethally armed I would drop him at 5yds then shove my S.O. out the door to the kitchen. Depends on distances, for the other BG armed with a pistol. Likely, out the kitchen. But if he trained the gun on me, I'd line him up. I don't ever want to be in the situation, but if cornered and they're lethally armed, I will not accept being shuttled into the back. Not ever.
It's a fine idea to think we can have choices, in such situations. But, being honest we must accept that the BG's partly get off by the control factor. They're directing things. They're also somewhat unstable. In today's day and age, it's frequent that such folks pop innocents for kicks. No guarantees that a desire to be a witness (fly on the wall) will go rewarded. Anything -- a look, moving too quickly, having a S.O. that rubs him the "right" way -- can set a BG off. No telling, until it's going down. But if lethally cornered, I would assuredly defend myself. No doubt.
Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
self defense (A.O.J.).
How does disarming
the number of victims?
Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos)
NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.
July 23rd, 2006 03:32 PM
We don't have to walk throught the bar or anything do we? I'd hate to break the law and all...
Seriously, I'd be finding a way out or at least cover. If all he wanted was my stuff, that's fine....he can have the throwaway of old things in pocket. 911 would already have been called and the phone would be on the floor someplace, perhaps a napkin over the earpiece
But beyond that, it would have to depend on how things looked.
If I was carrying my laser S&W, "dots the way" I'd proceed, watching lanes of fire still.
Armed & Dangerous...and Inconspicuous...
July 23rd, 2006 05:11 PM
May I boringly repeat what I am saying more and more - seeing as any and every situation is different due to shere number of variables -
''Play it as you see it'' - at the time. Being a witness and not shooting is highly preferable but .......... we just never know. Even with a diagram (very good one!) - to go by - the smallest difference in anticipated moves can totally change the options.
Chris - P95
NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.
"To own a gun and assume that you are armed
is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."
- a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.
July 23rd, 2006 05:21 PM
A few things were left up to the imagination of the people reading this... One of those was is the backdoor exit to the restaurant really in the kitchen. I was going to draw where the exit was, but decided to leave it out which ccw9mm noticed was notably missing. The thing is that we can't always assume that the exit is actually in the kitchen. Sometimes it's at the end of the bathrooms, sometimes it's elsewhere.
Another thing that I decisively left out was what the intentions/instructions were after the initial setup. I did this so it would be more life-like because on both this point and regarding the true exit, we really don't always know. Just something to think about... Remember to play "what if" scenarios in your head and include possible escape routes given different situations. Try to figure out the exits and lines of sight.
(And BTW, profshadow, there is no bar. The long tables in the middle were supposed to be for things like large groups of people for birthday parties, etc. Sorry for the confusion.)
July 23rd, 2006 07:26 PM
There are two real distinct option here I think. The first is to do the whole "just give them what they want" bit. This will work fine assuming no one does anything stupid. The second thing that could be done is to wait until our friend with the knife is reasonably close and then...uh...end the threat. This would be done if you decide that these guys are probably going to kill someone or if they do attack someone.
The gun wielding bad guy might be a bit unhappy and will probably start shooting. At this point you'll want to go for the kitchen for cover and exit out the back. I have yet to see a restaurant that did not have a rear exit, but if it does not then I would hide in the back and call the police
July 23rd, 2006 07:38 PM
Originally Posted by soundwave
Having performed the odd code enforcement inspection now and then, I would like to add that the exit might well be there, but unless you can see it before you start for it, you might get a rude surprise.
It is amazing how often these things end up blocked with stacks of supplies and whatnot.
Many also have alarms, some on a delay before the door unlocks. This could wreck your whole day...
Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
Blame it on Sixto - now that is a viable plan.
July 23rd, 2006 11:15 PM
Being that (we) are sitting in the corner, and have a mostly clear view of everything happening, I would draw BUT keep it at the ready under the table and out of sight. My wife would also be doing the same thing (but that may fall outside the scenario).
At this point we would just wait. We would be remain seated and try to "blend in" as just another customer as much as we can.
In the event the BG with the knife came to collect our valuables, he can have them. If it were the one with the gun, he may or may not get them. If he got close enough and gave me a clear shot I MAY take it (really depends on their attitude).
If they look as if they just want the money then they will leave, then they can have it. If the situation becomes violent, they give me reason to feel that it is only getting worse, they start moving or corralling people, or if they are just really unstable, then I may take a shot (or 2 or 3).
I would rather give them a few bucks and have to cancel my credit cards than have to pay a lot more money to a lawyer and have to explain why I shot someone.
July 23rd, 2006 11:29 PM
After pondering about this for a while since my last post on this thread I started to wonder about the possibility of another person outside in a getaway car. If the two inside are armed then its a fair chance that the possible person outside would be armed as well. And if you make it to an exit and there is someone out there youre probably not gonna notice since you'll be thinking of whats happening inside. I think id change my answer of getting to the kitchen. I'd stay put and try not to draw attention to myself. If things start going downhill and the poo begins to hit the fan then I'll probably try to take them out, otherwise I'll let the cashier give him the money and watch them leave.
July 24th, 2006 01:53 AM
I agree, take cover in the kitchen if you can get there (assuming it offers no exit). That way you have a kill zone if one of the BGs enters.
However, I think we have overlooked the probable reaction of the customers. As soon as knife guy starts threatening, there is going to be panic: some will scream, some make for the bathroom, others get under the table, etc (wife calls 911 & keeps dispatcher up to date on happenings). Gun guy will be forced to turn from the manager to control the customers with his weapon. That means he will likely prevent your attempt to reach the kitchen unless you react very early.
An uncertain factor here is how well the partitions isolate the customers from one another, and block the overview of the Gun guy: I assume he cant see over the top of the "High door partitions".
So you have two choices: let them keep control (over YOU), or take decisive action. If the latter, you have to take out Gun guy first, preferably while Knife guy is out of sight. If you wait until Knife guy gets to you, you are under a double threat, and Gun guy will probably be watching you. If you feel Knife guy is unpredictable, you can't let him get near you; uness he is very cool, he is likely to be nervous and may do, or have done something rash, because he doesn't have control over all the patrons like his partner does.
So there is a rationale for taking the initative. If one choses to do so, how? I'd consider getting behind the nearest partition, and sneaking up to the end near the manager's desk where I can take a shot from close range at Gun guy. I must shoot from a prone position to avoid endangering the group of 4 opposite. If I successfully neutralize Gun guy, Knife guy will either run for it (most likely, if not directly threatened, why argue with a successful gun?), or possibly take a hostage if he thinks I can see him. Not good. However, he doesn't know where I am and as he can't see me he can't know I complied with his order to disarm, so a hostage won't help him. If he took a hostage, it would only be to the exit, because beyond, a hostage would be an encumbrance. There is always a risk he will irrationally harm a hostage, however, so I have to act.
I probably know about where he is, so I can probably quickly stalk him among the screens, and would have a good chance for a head shot using a screen for a a rest, assuming I have the nerve and skill for it. A better risk than leaving a hostage to his tender mercies.
Yes, things can go wrong, but thay can also go wrong it you choose to be passive guests at an armed robbery.
Anyway, a different response to consider. Would I attempt it? It wuld depend in part on the weapon I was carrying: not with a mousegun!
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