When does assault evolve into a life-threatening beating?

[Rivers]

Like Old School, I always have my ASP Defender on my key chain, so...

If I've got my keys, I'm carrying OC. It's much easier to deal with the aftermath of macing somebody as opposed to shooting them. Also, it isn't specified whether there are other bystanders about. It's much better for a group of 3 or 4 to render non-lethal aid. Somehow, and maybe I'm off-base here, but this thread strikes me as being one of those where the OP is in the "OK - can I shoot now? Can I shoot now?" mode.

Seems to me that if you have a gun, you're allowed to shoot it all you want. And then you'll have to explain to a court why you did so and hope that your actions are deemed "reasonable."

This scenario is meant to explore the choices that three different types of people would have in that scenario. What I've learned so far from those who posted is that at least a good portion of them also carry OC. My experience tells me that most people who carry a gun do not also carry OC. I know I have it in my vehicle and occasionally on my person, but that wouldn't help in my scenario.

Also, many on this forum no longer have either the physique or the health that they enjoyed in their youth. If they do not carry OC, it seems to me that they either watch/walk away from someone in distress, or their firearm comes into play in some way. With that being the only choice to stop the assault, maybe this thread will encourage others, me included, to keep that less-than-lethal option available more often.

[DefensiveCarry.com]

[Guantes]

I posted an alternative choice.

[Pinger]

I'd pull my firearm, yell at the assailant to stop that I had a gun and that I was calling the police. I'd do it once more if I had to, then fire a shot in the air if the assailant did not stop. Once the assailant noticed me I'd hold aim on the guy, yell at him to get down on the ground and then wait for the police. If the guy came at me in a way that made me fear for my life I'd shoot him.

[NC Bullseye]

After reading about the AZ blindside assault of an older man by a young athletic man, this scenario occurred to me:

You are a licensed handgun carrier with a loaded handgun in a legal area to carry. You witness from the beginning an assault. An older man is attacked blindly by a much younger, stronger man. The assailant has an immediate advantage after knocking the older man to the concrete. The older man is unable to defend himself, possibly already unconscious. The assailant continues to attack. At this point, you could think that the victim will be killed in very short time.

You are aware that others are already trying to call 911, etc. Nobody is attempting to directly stop the assault.

About you:
1) You are a young, strong man who could possibly match the assailant in a fist fight. Do you engage physically or does your firearm come into play?

2) You are an older healthy man who would probably have a disadvantage physically against the younger, strong and obviously violent assailant. Do you engage physically or does your firearm come into play?

3) You are physically impaired: natural causes (age), visible injury (broken leg in a cast, on crutches, in wheelchair, etc.) or invisible problem (heart disease, cancer, recent surgery, etc.) You may look fit but you KNOW that you cannot physically engage the assailant to stop the assault. Does your firearm come into play?

What do you do, knowing that seconds DO count?

I didn't change the scenario. You introduced something (OC) that I didn't include in my original scenario. So, to level the playing field, please only include OC as a possible option if you ALWAYS carry OC whenever you carry your handgun. I say ALWAYS because we all know that trouble happens without warning. You gear up how you would normally gear up.

You did change the scenerio. Since I ALWAYS have OC on me when I'm up and moving it is another tool in my tool box that I always have. Now, to follow your train of thought say you pull your firearm and it self destructs in tiny pieces when you pull the trigger.....

[muddy]

Granted, OC could be a very valid option. Too bad you don't have any with you. No time to go shopping for it either. Now what do you do???

OC, which I always have on me. The attacker is not going to listen or even hear you throw out your warnings. The only real way is to get his attention by force or other so out would come my oc and I would hose him down. Other then that a good shove away from the victim and be ready to draw if the attacker turns on you.

[RevolvingMag]

I don't carry OC, but my fiancee does. (Which I will be remedying soon.) I am young, just turned 23, but have very serious back problems that limits my effectiveness in a fight. I will begin carrying OC, but I do usually tend to rely on my 6'2", 300lb frame to be imposing enough to not need the use of force.

So, in said scenario (I will assume that my fiancee isn't with me, or I have sent her on to our vehicle to call for help/get clear). I would make sure that I was standing at enough of an angle to give myself a clear line of fire, give verbal warning ("STOP, the police are on their way", "You're going to kill him", etc.). On the second call, I would announce that I was armed as I draw my weapon. After the third call, ( and if no other aid came into play) I would fire center mass. Once the threat was neutralized, I would holster my weapon and give whatever aid I could to the attack victim until the police/EMTs arrived.

[Rivers]

It looks like OC would be the most appropriate first action (beyond verbal commands which would likely be ignored anyway.) So here is an honest question for EMTs and other medical people: Would OC have any effect on the victim who is likely unconscious? Since OC is a spray and the targeting could hit the victim as well as the assailant, I'm interested in knowing if the OC might seriously harm the victim too. Wind and adrenaline can make spraying an inexact science.

[Xader]

So, to level the playing field, please only include OC as a possible option if you ALWAYS carry OC whenever you carry your handgun

I always have OC. It goes on my belt when my holster does.

Also, I don't really fit any of your three categories. Or possibly, I'm in all. I'm between young and old, and I have a physical impairment (respiratory condition). So as stated by others, OC first, firearm as a last line of defense.

[red13]

Granted, OC could be a very valid option. Too bad you don't have any with you. No time to go shopping for it either. Now what do you do???

Actually, always, always, have a carry gun (except like in the post office) and a Kimber pepper blaster. That's actually the perfect answer to a lot of things in this scenario. It's small and light and the only reason not to have it is not taking stuff seriously (ie, I'm just running down to the corner). Also always have a tactical folder, but that's for the absolute last ditch Hail Mary. Also for opening jerky. Darn those modern plastics.

But seriously, in answer to the question, assuming the above, I would hose him down, probably no warning. He'd probably survive, unless he's got some allergies/ respiratory issues. Then he's as dead as if he got shot. But that could happen eating the wrong thing in a restaurant. All things being equal, between shooting him, spraying him, shiving him, or letting him kill an old guy, that's my pick.

[Guantes]

The courtesy of of acknowledgement would be nice, even if the alternative is unacceptable.

[Xader]

The courtesy of of acknowledgement would be nice, even if the alternative is unacceptable.

I wouldn't consider a "cheap shot" unacceptable. Heck, in the story that spawned this scenario, a cheap shot was how it all began.

[Guantes]

Thanks Xader, I was primarily speaking to the OP.

[Xader]

Thanks Xader, I was primarily speaking to the OP.

I figured, but better somebody else than nobody, right?

[Rivers]

Falling into catagory #2, take whatever "cheap shot" I determine is most appropriate and effective at the time.

I read that as engaging physically without a firearm involved. As mentioned by Xader, I wouldn't consider anything you could do to the assailant as being a "cheap shop" - He deserves no mercy for an ambush attack.

Guantes - My apology for not commenting on your post earlier.

[Guantes]

Thank you, appreciated.